Countries and their ashamed history

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

I knew when MES said "what have the Romans done for us" and I jokingly said "Spag Bol" someone would say "it's not Italian".

Maybe I should've said Pasta with Bol. :)

Next time simply say "the aqueducts"

 

[Bill Walker]

I agree.
No Woman No Cry is a fucking dirge, and old Bob should've laid off the ganja

My old neighbour was called Bob Marley.
Nothing funny about that but it always cracked me up for some reason.

We never referred to him as just Bob, it was always Bob Marley :)

 

[dickie davies]

We gave the world football and for that one gift alone our slate must be wiped clean. In fact we should be in credit

 

[Bill Walker]

Yes worldwide it will.
But using the hundreds of years of recorded history between ourselves Ireland/Britain as an example a line can be drawn under any conflict iwith the proper will and intention.

I hated history in school, as much for the way it was drummed into us in a Christian Brothers School, the curriculum in general, the fact that it was all about dates that had to be remembered for exams but had no relevance to me and also how we had a northern Irish teacher who would regale us constantly with his perspective of life in Belfast.

I found a love of Irish history later in life through my own need to understand why we were where we were and indeed are right now.

The progression, the story, now had significance to me.

For me and I would think a lot of my generation the line was finally drawn under our relationship with the GFA and the two referendums we had around it in The Republic.

To me it resoundingly said that Irish people agree that this is the way forward.

Nobody needs to forget the past. I would encourage people not to.
Let it be a reminder of where inequality and intolerance can lead.

I always find your posts re Ireland very interesting mate.

 

[Ribble73]

Presentism is a big danger here: that is transferring the mores of the present to the past and judging the past by today’s standards. So, I have seen many an argument that Churchill was a racist. He was born in the 18th century and it is not surprising that he had attitudes that were common in his day. Those attitudes would not have been criticised as racism in the past, nor can you say he would have been racist were he alive today.
A poster above mentioned Cromwell’s sins in Ireland; well yes, but they occurred in the 17th century Ffs.
Civilisation is a process by which, theoretically, we progress to a better world. It is, therefore, intellectually nonsense to leave out that progress when comparing the mores of today with the actions of yesteryear.
Of course we should always be cognisant of our history and learn the lessons thereof, but castigating ourselves for it is just ridiculous.

Brilliant Post
Casting ourselves as Judge and Jury on Historical figures according to our current zeitgeist is utterly ridiculous and has only cropped up in this current fractious age were everybody has to be categorised as on message or not. Europe was shaped by Christianity and not this Secular Age we are living through for the past 30 years or so and enhanced by the age of Stupidity of the last 5 years or so.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I always find your posts re Ireland very interesting mate.

Go raibh maith agat.

 

[Onholiday(somemightsay)]

If you think people don't moan about those other things, you haven't been paying attention. Obviously the vikings is going a bit far back, but Australia, Canada and the US constantly have debates about how they've treated the natives in the past. Japan are constantly called to apologize for war crimes in Korea and other areas of Asia. Turkey are constantly called on to apologize for their actions in Armenia.

When it comes to how far back you go, the first question is whether the people in question are still alive. With Japan's WW2 atrocities, there are still people alive that are due an apology. Native Canadian children have suffered horrendous abuse in living memory. The second question is whether the actions at that time have had a long-term impact on the descendants of those people. In most cases, it hasn't been a case of a bunch of atrocities and then suddenly everything is fine. It is a gradual process of treating these people like equal citizens, that in many cases, arguably isn't finished. Nobody nowadays is suffering because of the viking invasion. Plenty of people are still suffering because of the civil rights abuses in America, which started with slavery, but certainly didn't finish with it.

Obviously it gets a bit more complicated when talking about colonialism, because you have to ask at which point after independence do you have to accept that these countries' plight is their own responsibility. How much of Africa's relative poverty is due to colonialism, and how much is simply due to the realities of the geography and economy of the continent making it more difficult to build wealth? I don't know the answer to that. But arguably Europe wasn't rich because of colonialism, it was colonial because it was rich. Which isn't to say that they didn't abuse that power to further exploit other countries and make themselves richer.

May as well close the thread now - that's probably the most reasoned and balanced post we are going to get.

Well played sir...........

 

[Barcon]

I agree.
No Woman No Cry is a fucking dirge, and old Bob should've laid off the ganja

He might as well have called himself Robert and joined snow patrol.

 

[Barcon]

My old neighbour was called Bob Marley.
Nothing funny about that but it always cracked me up for some reason.

We never referred to him as just Bob, it was always Bob Marley :)

My mates next door neighbour was called Olive and we always serenaded her with Led Zeppelins Olive my love.

 

[Bill Walker]

My mates next door neighbour was called Olive and we always serenaded her with Led Zeppelins Olive my love.

Haha. I remember one night got in bed with the missus, we were both a bit drunk and I said "wonder where Bob keeps his whalers" no kidding laughed like fuck for about 10 minutes solid.