Crunch Time in the US

ElanJo said:
Matty said:
ElanJo said:
I suggest you read the writings of the founding fathers as to why the "right to bear arms" was included.
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Go on then, enlighten me.

And whilst you're at it explain to me why it is neccessary in this day and age to own a gun?

I've no doubt you'll come out with some "civil liberty", "Freedom of choice" response which doesn't address the obvious dangers of allowing pretty much anyone to own a weapon.
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I still suggest you make an effort to enlighten yourself , as they are far more qualified than me on such matters, but heres a few general points that you don't hear much on the BBC etc:

Well, apart from freedom, as you mention there are the important aspects of retaining your freedom/life, such as:

- Protection of your life, family, liberty, community, country and property against criminals or terrorists (who aren't going to abide by laws)
- Protection of your life, family, liberty, community, country and property against foreign state invasion
- Protection of your life, family, liberty, community, country and property against your own government

If you disarm the citizens, you leave only criminals and government the ability to defend themselves , and attack others.
It also creates a black market, which in turn creates gang-violence/culture (similar to the flawed "war on drugs" in this aspect)
Massacres still exist, as we all know here. Massacres are happening in "gun free zones" in the US.
I bet those that died on 9/11 would have liked the chance for the Airlines to have had the ability to gun down the terrorists before they all died from impact, jet fuel, being crushed to death, sliced in half by falling glass panels, suffocation, or even being forced to choose whether they burn to death or jump out of the fucking towers. But no, Government wouldn't allow them that.

There will always be evil people in society. You cant legislate morality. I'd rather put up with the inconveniences of freedom, rather than put up with the inconvenience of a lack freedom. A country where everyone is armed isn't a threat to the country itself, but a country with no arms is easy pickings. Just think, someone who is pro-gun will always be so no matter what criminals throw at them...whereas those that are anti-gun have a fair chance of turning pro-gun after they have been assaulted, robbed or raped at gun point.

For me, the 2nd amendment is not outdated. To say such a thing is to say freedom(and, more importantly, the act of preserving it) is outdated. Absurd, of course.
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But it's the "A well regulated militia" that gets left off. Sounds like mandatory military service to me. Not that I think that it is a bad idea, mind you!
 
Matty said:
And your opinion of the UK, bearing in mind we DON'T own guns (or at least very, very few of us do)? Would you say we lacked freedom?

When, exactly, was the last time a first world nation had to protect itsle, with firearms, against it's own government?

Has America EVER been invaded?

Plus I think the gang violence ship has well and truly sailed in America, certainly in some areas, where the ownership of guns simply makes murder far far easier.

The presence of firearms on planes would no doubt lead to MORE hijackings, not less. And that's before you consider the inherant dangers with firing a gun in a pressurised plane!

Britain hasn't even been successfully invaded since 1066! I'd hardly call that 'easy pickings'.

The fact that members of the general public can own guns in America means criminals carry guns more often. In the UK your average burglar will most likely run if discovered, and it's highly unlikely he'll be carrying a gun. In America, where the householder may well be armed, the criminal isn't going to want to turn his back and flee, he'll want to defend himself, potentially with deadly force.

We have an issue with knife crime at present, but it pales into insignificance when considered to the gun crime issue in America.
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Yes, we certainly lack freedom in the UK. Not just in terms of arms, but in many other areas also.

Ok, you believe that our Government could never become tyrannical. Why exactly?

America has been invaded... by us. No-one could successfully invade the US, because most citizens have guns. America would be ripe for invading atm , considering their troops are stretched thin around the globe - if it weren't for the 2nd amendment. The only way they could be brought to their knees is through Nukes or an outside War of attrition (whereby they'd be economically drained) and of course, inflation.

The gang violence ship well and truly sailed? In the short term, yes. The War on Drugs has a lot to answer for in that respect. Hopefully the US Gov will tackle the fundamental problems (poverty and abolishing the war on drugs) instead of wasting time and money creating and tackling the symptoms.

The presence of the airlines having the tools to keep their passengers safe will lead to more hijackings? I never said Airlines should allow passengers to bring firearms on the plane. I am talking about the Airline themselves. Atleast allow the Airlines to decide - do not dictate to them. It is my opinion that if the Airlines were allowed to protect their plane and passengers 911 wouldn't have happened (imagine that! think of the implications) and that Airlines would be far safer. You may have a different opinion. You'd simply fly on airlines that were "gun free" , I wouldn't.

As for "easy pickings", I was referring to the citizens (I tend to use the word "Country", sorry) and a potential tyrannical government. Im sure Jews would have liked a firearm or 2, 60+ years ago, in Germany (Europes most civilised nation before then). Of course, Hitler knew better than to allow them to defend themselves. Besides, we would have been easy pickings for the Nazi's had it not been for the US and Hitler himself.

As for your last paragraph. If you want to put your life in the hands of chance, then fine. I'd rather know that I can defend myself, no matter what.

On the point of knives and guns. You cant fight for your freedom, against a tyrannical government, with a meat clever.
 
Matty,
FYI many times there ARE indeed weapons onboard commercial airliners here in America. Sometimes they are in the cabin in the form of law enforcement or armed Federal Air Marshals. Sometimes they are in the cockpit. There is a program under which some pilots are authorized to carry weapons onboard.
 
The yanks solution to everything is always 'more guns'.

I remember after the latest high school shooting this guy was on the news saying the best solution would be to keep guns on the school grounds as an act of protection.

I was pissing myself. Totally backwards.
 
ElanJo said:
Yes, we certainly lack freedom in the UK. Not just in terms of arms, but in many other areas also.

Ok, you believe that our Government could never become tyrannical. Why exactly?

America has been invaded... by us. No-one could successfully invade the US, because most citizens have guns. America would be ripe for invading atm , considering their troops are stretched thin around the globe - if it weren't for the 2nd amendment. The only way they could be brought to their knees is through Nukes or an outside War of attrition (whereby they'd be economically drained) and of course, inflation.

The gang violence ship well and truly sailed? In the short term, yes. The War on Drugs has a lot to answer for in that respect. Hopefully the US Gov will tackle the fundamental problems (poverty and abolishing the war on drugs) instead of wasting time and money creating and tackling the symptoms.

The presence of the airlines having the tools to keep their passengers safe will lead to more hijackings? I never said Airlines should allow passengers to bring firearms on the plane. I am talking about the Airline themselves. Atleast allow the Airlines to decide - do not dictate to them. It is my opinion that if the Airlines were allowed to protect their plane and passengers 911 wouldn't have happened (imagine that! think of the implications) and that Airlines would be far safer. You may have a different opinion. You'd simply fly on airlines that were "gun free" , I wouldn't.

As for "easy pickings", I was referring to the citizens (I tend to use the word "Country", sorry) and a potential tyrannical government. Im sure Jews would have liked a firearm or 2, 60+ years ago, in Germany (Europes most civilised nation before then). Of course, Hitler knew better than to allow them to defend themselves. Besides, we would have been easy pickings for the Nazi's had it not been for the US and Hitler himself.

As for your last paragraph. If you want to put your life in the hands of chance, then fine. I'd rather know that I can defend myself, no matter what.

On the point of knives and guns. You cant fight for your freedom, against a tyrannical government, with a meat clever.
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For pity's sake, man, switch off your TV.
 
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