Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[mcfcphil]

It’s hard for a manager to come into a new league and adapt straight away – but at the end of the day that’s the job he’s taken on and he has to be judged accordingly. So far you can’t come to any other conclusion than it’s been a very poor start.

Actually, that's a conclusion you can draw, but it's not the only conclusion which can be drawn. For me it's been an ok start to the season, but very poor feels like a gross exaggeration even if we are just playing semantics. Here's why ... we've qualified from our CL group. Our home form and record remains intact. We've played one derby and won it comfortably. Some of our key underperforming players from last season are looking much improved. And twice we've lost multiple players to injury in the same position, which although not an excuse, certainly mitigates performances that aren't up to scratch.

I do agree that football is very unforgiving at the highest level and time isn't really a luxury managers have. But it's all relative - and Pellegrini will without question be given not just this season, but next season too, to achieve the targets that have been set him. I don't for one minute believe our owners would countenance a sacking unless something genuinely unacceptable (finishing outside the top4 - not getting out of our CL group again) happened, and I don't think there's any chance of the former happening and the latter has already been dealt with in a satisfactory manner.

It is semantics. So i think you’ve got to look at the hard facts.
Yes we’ve had injuries – but the credentials of a title winning team always include your ability to deal with injuries to key players. So that simply doesn’t wash with me. I would say that being so reliant on fernandinho and kompany for two positions was a massive mistake in the summer – who is ultimately to blame for that I don’t know.
Yes, qualifying for the last 16 is a big tick next to pellegrini. Fair play.
But certainly in the premier league you simply can’t look past the fact that after 11 games we’re 8th and six points off the lead having been beaten by villa, sunderland, Cardiff and Chelsea and only managed a draw at stoke
That is just not good enough and can’t be excused. You also can’t mitigate those defeats with the fact we battered united, as lovely as it was.

We're 8th - i really hope we improve but that's the reality of the situation and it's poor.

 

[Danielmanc]

It’s hard for a manager to come into a new league and adapt straight away – but at the end of the day that’s the job he’s taken on and he has to be judged accordingly. So far you can’t come to any other conclusion than it’s been a very poor start.

Actually, that's a conclusion you can draw, but it's not the only conclusion which can be drawn. For me it's been an ok start to the season, but very poor feels like a gross exaggeration even if we are just playing semantics. Here's why ... we've qualified from our CL group. Our home form and record remains intact. We've played one derby and won it comfortably. Some of our key underperforming players from last season are looking much improved. And twice we've lost multiple players to injury in the same position, which although not an excuse, certainly mitigates performances that aren't up to scratch.

I do agree that football is very unforgiving at the highest level and time isn't really a luxury managers have. But it's all relative - and Pellegrini will without question be given not just this season, but next season too, to achieve the targets that have been set him. I don't for one minute believe our owners would countenance a sacking unless something genuinely unacceptable (finishing outside the top4 - not getting out of our CL group again) happened, and I don't think there's any chance of the former happening and the latter has already been dealt with in a satisfactory manner.

It is semantics. So i think you’ve got to look at the hard facts.
Yes we’ve had injuries – but the credentials of a title winning team always include your ability to deal with injuries to key players. So that simply doesn’t wash with me. I would say that being so reliant on fernandinho and kompany for two positions was a massive mistake in the summer – who is ultimately to blame for that I don’t know.
Yes, qualifying for the last 16 is a big tick next to pellegrini. Fair play.
But certainly in the premier league you simply can’t look past the fact that after 11 games we’re 7th and six points off the lead having been beaten by villa, sunderland, Cardiff and Chelsea and only managed a draw at stoke
That is just not good enough and can’t be excused. You also can’t mitigate those defeats with the fact we battered united, as lovely as it was.

We're 7th - i really hope we improve but that's the reality of the situation and it's poor.

Bit worse than that Wireblue, we're 8th !

 

[mcfcphil]

Actually, that's a conclusion you can draw, but it's not the only conclusion which can be drawn. For me it's been an ok start to the season, but very poor feels like a gross exaggeration even if we are just playing semantics. Here's why ... we've qualified from our CL group. Our home form and record remains intact. We've played one derby and won it comfortably. Some of our key underperforming players from last season are looking much improved. And twice we've lost multiple players to injury in the same position, which although not an excuse, certainly mitigates performances that aren't up to scratch.

I do agree that football is very unforgiving at the highest level and time isn't really a luxury managers have. But it's all relative - and Pellegrini will without question be given not just this season, but next season too, to achieve the targets that have been set him. I don't for one minute believe our owners would countenance a sacking unless something genuinely unacceptable (finishing outside the top4 - not getting out of our CL group again) happened, and I don't think there's any chance of the former happening and the latter has already been dealt with in a satisfactory manner.

It is semantics. So i think you’ve got to look at the hard facts.
Yes we’ve had injuries – but the credentials of a title winning team always include your ability to deal with injuries to key players. So that simply doesn’t wash with me. I would say that being so reliant on fernandinho and kompany for two positions was a massive mistake in the summer – who is ultimately to blame for that I don’t know.
Yes, qualifying for the last 16 is a big tick next to pellegrini. Fair play.
But certainly in the premier league you simply can’t look past the fact that after 11 games we’re 7th and six points off the lead having been beaten by villa, sunderland, Cardiff and Chelsea and only managed a draw at stoke
That is just not good enough and can’t be excused. You also can’t mitigate those defeats with the fact we battered united, as lovely as it was.

We're 7th - i really hope we improve but that's the reality of the situation and it's poor.

Bit worse than that Wireblue, we're 8th !

haha i know mate just edited my post!!! Wish altering our league position was that easy in reality!

 

[Anonymous]

It is semantics. So i think you’ve got to look at the hard facts.
Yes we’ve had injuries – but the credentials of a title winning team always include your ability to deal with injuries to key players. So that simply doesn’t wash with me. I would say that being so reliant on fernandinho and kompany for two positions was a massive mistake in the summer – who is ultimately to blame for that I don’t know.
Yes, qualifying for the last 16 is a big tick next to pellegrini. Fair play.
But certainly in the premier league you simply can’t look past the fact that after 11 games we’re 8th and six points off the lead having been beaten by villa, sunderland, Cardiff and Chelsea and only managed a draw at stoke
That is just not good enough and can’t be excused. You also can’t mitigate those defeats with the fact we battered united, as lovely as it was.

We're 8th - i really hope we improve but that's the reality of the situation and it's poor.

Again you speak in such definitive terms that I simply can't agree with a lot of the points you make, even though I can see where you're coming from. Working backwards - the league position itself is utterly irrelevant when there's 6 points between top and where we are. It's also important IMO to acknowledge the difference in quality in the league this season in comparison to the last two. There's a reason that everything is so tight for everyone, and it's due to everyone dropping points they ordinarily wouldn't because the general level of competition in games is so high.

I agree that teams must cope with injuries, and it's not an excuse come the end of the season. However within the context of the first 11 games when silly points have been dropped, I think it's ok to point out that we have had multiple injuries at the same time in the same position. You take Luiz and Terry or Cahill out of Chelsea's back line through injury they'll have a big problem. Same if you take Ramires and Lampard out of their midfield at the same time.

 

[Stoned Rose]

Pellegrini really is getting a seriously raw deal from some on here.

I've seen 'clueless', 'clown', 'yes man', that's more character assassination than managerial critique?

A guy who flew home to Chile to attend the funeral of his mother and flew back straight away for a meaningless friendly in the Far East.

I don't think anyone should be any doubt over his commitment to get it right. Question the ability to get it right, sure, but a lot of the comments still seem rooted in resentment rather than rationale?

We are also being let down by long-term offenders that even Mancini could not bring into line.

Every bit of this is spot fuckin on.

The manager has not been to 'blame' for any of the 4 defeats.

Errors, lack of concentration and in yesterday's case a completely vile lack of application and desire from the players.

This works the other way round as well.

After great performances and great results people come on here and give a slight nod to the manager 'getting it right'.

What 99% of you are missing on your analysis is that whether we hammer Norwich 7- 0 or utd 4-1 or lose to Sunderland or Cardiff, it's the players who deliver those performances and results not the manager. They are out there in the pitch doing what they do.

7-0 Norwich
4-1 utd
5-2 cska
2-1 cska
3-0 plzen
4-0 Newcastle
3-1 Everton
2-0 hull
3-1 west ham

8 wins, 33 goals scored, 6 conceded.

0-1 Sunderland
2-3 villa
2-3 Cardiff
1-2 Chelsea
1-3 Bayern

5 losses, 6 goals scored, 12 conceded.

That clearly points to a Jekyll and Hyde team mindset and lazy or arrogant or both approach to some games .

If some of you think all this is down to one man you are delusional beyond words.

It's the players. The top set of results proves that.. The bottom set of results confirms it beyond dispute.

Player errors, key injuries, lack of application and desire at times.

Not the manager.

Hang on, are you serious? It's up to the manager to sort out arrogant or lazy attitudes, it's up to the manager to get his team performing at the level required. It's up to the manager and coaching staff to reduce the number of errors that players make.

By your reasoning no manager would ever be sacked for poor results. As I said earlier I'm not after Pellegrini's head but he sure as hell has to share responsibility for the poor away results up to now.

I said it isn't one man's fault and it isn't.

How can hart's howlers be MPs fault? That's an illogical argument.

How can yesterday's inability to take our chances be MPs fault? Again illogical.

MP can only drill them on the training pitch what they do after that is THEM.

Are you (and most others) therefore saying that when aguero scores a cracker or silva runs a game is that also 'down to ' MP and nothing else?

See how daft your logic sounds?

 

[mcfcphil]

It is semantics. So i think you’ve got to look at the hard facts.
Yes we’ve had injuries – but the credentials of a title winning team always include your ability to deal with injuries to key players. So that simply doesn’t wash with me. I would say that being so reliant on fernandinho and kompany for two positions was a massive mistake in the summer – who is ultimately to blame for that I don’t know.
Yes, qualifying for the last 16 is a big tick next to pellegrini. Fair play.
But certainly in the premier league you simply can’t look past the fact that after 11 games we’re 8th and six points off the lead having been beaten by villa, sunderland, Cardiff and Chelsea and only managed a draw at stoke
That is just not good enough and can’t be excused. You also can’t mitigate those defeats with the fact we battered united, as lovely as it was.

We're 8th - i really hope we improve but that's the reality of the situation and it's poor.

Again you speak in such definitive terms that I simply can't agree with a lot of the points you make, even though I can see where you're coming from. Working backwards - the league position itself is utterly irrelevant when there's 6 points between top and where we are. It's also important IMO to acknowledge the difference in quality in the league this season in comparison to the last two. There's a reason that everything is so tight for everyone, and it's due to everyone dropping points they ordinarily wouldn't because the general level of competition in games is so high.

I agree that teams must cope with injuries, and it's not an excuse come the end of the season. However within the context of the first 11 games when silly points have been dropped, I think it's ok to point out that we have had multiple injuries at the same time in the same position. You take Luiz and Terry or Cahill out of Chelsea's back line through injury they'll have a big problem. Same if you take Ramires and Lampard out of their midfield at the same time.

We’re like lawyers really making the facts tell the story we want them to. I could easily say the fact that other clubs are dropping points and we’re still 8th makes things all the more worrying.

But if i just concentrate on the city matches i’ve seen glaring weaknesses that haven’t been addressed. For example we were brilliant against Moscow but even so there were signs that our defence was having major issues. Again a lot of that is down to kompany but c’est la vie.

For the record i’m usually a very optimistic city fan (if there’s such a thing). And slightly off topic it’s really frustrating me because after every home match i’m walking down that spiral saying to my dad “as good as that was the real test is the next match away at xyz” and each time other than west ham they’ve let us down. Bizarrely it’ s making the experience of watching city at home just as frustrating as watching us away.

 

[lancs blue]

Every bit of this is spot fuckin on.

The manager has not been to 'blame' for any of the 4 defeats.

Errors, lack of concentration and in yesterday's case a completely vile lack of application and desire from the players.

This works the other way round as well.

After great performances and great results people come on here and give a slight nod to the manager 'getting it right'.

What 99% of you are missing on your analysis is that whether we hammer Norwich 7- 0 or utd 4-1 or lose to Sunderland or Cardiff, it's the players who deliver those performances and results not the manager. They are out there in the pitch doing what they do.

7-0 Norwich
4-1 utd
5-2 cska
2-1 cska
3-0 plzen
4-0 Newcastle
3-1 Everton
2-0 hull
3-1 west ham

8 wins, 33 goals scored, 6 conceded.

0-1 Sunderland
2-3 villa
2-3 Cardiff
1-2 Chelsea
1-3 Bayern

5 losses, 6 goals scored, 12 conceded.

That clearly points to a Jekyll and Hyde team mindset and lazy or arrogant or both approach to some games .

If some of you think all this is down to one man you are delusional beyond words.

It's the players. The top set of results proves that.. The bottom set of results confirms it beyond dispute.

Player errors, key injuries, lack of application and desire at times.

Not the manager.

Hang on, are you serious? It's up to the manager to sort out arrogant or lazy attitudes, it's up to the manager to get his team performing at the level required. It's up to the manager and coaching staff to reduce the number of errors that players make.

By your reasoning no manager would ever be sacked for poor results. As I said earlier I'm not after Pellegrini's head but he sure as hell has to share responsibility for the poor away results up to now.

I said it isn't one man's fault and it isn't.

How can hart's howlers be MPs fault? That's an illogical argument.

How can yesterday's inability to take our chances be MPs fault? Again illogical.

MP can only drill them on the training pitch what they do after that is THEM.

Are you (and most others) therefore saying that when aguero scores a cracker or silva runs a game is that also 'down to ' MP and nothing else?

See how daft your logic sounds?

Did you miss the phrase SHARE RESPONSIBILITY in my reply? I didn't say it was all Pellegrini's fault but if the players don't perform the manager has to react to that, you seemed to imply that it was all the players fault which is equally daft.

 

[TGR]

Tolm - a lot of is is frustration at what happened to Mancini and there are some who just can't get over it and will deliver as much senseless abuse in MP's direction - some can't move on, but comparisons are going to be made as he was reasonably successful.

The issue here is - are the board going to back MP into making the changes required to get the results. If this form continues, sooner or later players will start to have doubts. My biggest concern is the reliant on certain players. Mancini had go to men in the team and it is looking that way for MP -

MP needs time, but there are some bad apples that need to be shifted, unfortunately their attitude has not improved even with a change of management - we have Southampton and WBA away coming up and both teams are flying - a rocket needs to be delivered up the arses of the players. Be it from MP and even sanction Khaldoon to come down hard.

Not so much bad apples, mate, simply bad players in regards being good enough for our present squad.

Highly-paid individuals who struck the lottery thanks to the position we found ourselves in when this incredible journey started. We had to buy a certain tier of player to progress.

Those players get knocked down the pecking order as we then buy players of a higher standing. Those limitations are cruelly exposed when we are forced to utilise the squad, as the comparisons with the hallmarks players then become even more pronounced, as do the disparity in results.

We simply even-up the scale when we go up against teams with players of a similar ilk, who still want to get the better of big bad Manchester City.

A bit like Fergie Time, we have somehow allowed a psyche to develop throughout the league in last 18 months or so. One which emboldens the opposition to run that extra yard because they know they have a template to achieve a result.

Very surprising - considering what is available to them to achieve - I sometimes look at the hunger level - for me I love Yaya for everything he has done and what he can do when he is up for it - but he is the leader out there and needs to be setting the example - the general on the pitch for MP -

I know it may take longer, but surely its time for him to start making a statement to others too. Anymore like yesterday is not acceptable

I wonder if the same 'bad apples' were the ones sending each other celebratory text messages to each other on the news that Mancini had been sacked?
Now that would be an unlikely coincidence wouldn't it?

 

[Anonymous]

We’re like lawyers really making the facts tell the story we want them to. I could easily say the fact that other clubs are dropping points and we’re still 8th makes things all the more worrying.

But if i just concentrate on the city matches i’ve seen glaring weaknesses that haven’t been addressed. For example we were brilliant against Moscow but even so there were signs that our defence was having major issues. Again a lot of that is down to kompany but c’est la vie.

For the record i’m usually a very optimistic city fan (if there’s such a thing). And slightly off topic it’s really frustrating me because after every home match i’m walking down that spiral saying to my dad “as good as that was the real test is the next match away at xyz” and each time other than west ham they’ve let us down. Bizarrely it’ s making the experience of watching city at home just as frustrating as watching us away.

Haha that's a really good analogy. I think whether it's a manager or a player we all make arguments rooted in our personal belief of their quality.

On the defensive side, I posted earlier something in reply to Cheesy which I think is hugely relevant but has been largely ignored. To put it simply, after Mancini went we could've appointed anyone and the owners chose a manager who's known for his attacking approach allied with executives who also believe in this approach. This approach does mean you're more open at the back. I can understand why it feels unpalatable after three years of Mancini, but it's the course they've chosen. It's one I wanted too so I won't complain about it but I do understand those who prefer coaches like Mancini/Benitez/Mourinho etc.

I'd be more concerned overall if I felt we weren't getting any better - I really think we are, away from home as well. Certainly in terms of performances. But we are becoming reliant on certain players because the change in system is one which some of our squad either can't deal with or are struggling to deal with.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Our away form this season puts us 16th in the away form table. Only Norwich, Hull, Sunderland and Palace are worse than us on the road. Our record this season is P6 W1 D1 L4 GS: 8 GC: 10 GD: -2 Pts: 4, or to put it another way we've dropped 14 points already away from home. Last season we were only 5th in the away form table, behind the other Top 5 clubs, with a record of P19 W9 D6 L4, which means our last 25 league away games record is P25 W10 D7 L8 =37 pts, which means we'd only get 56 points over a 38 game season if that form was translated to 38 games. We've dropped points in 60% of our away games since the start of last season, and only won 40% of them, it's wretched form. In the top 5 table for this period we rank like this:

Utd P24 W15 D5 L4 GS: 51 GC: 32 GD: +19 Pts: 50.
Arse P25 W14 D6 L5 GS: 36 GC: 19 GD: +17 Pts: 48.
Spurs P24 W13 D5 L6 GS: 41 GC: 29 GD: +12 44.
Chelski P24 W11 D6 L7 GS: 38 GC: 28 GD: +10 Pts: 39.
City P25 W10 D7 L8 GS: 33 GC: 29 GD: +4 Pts: 37.

it's worrying.