Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[BobKowalski]

I don't think you can call it good luck, more a total reality of the entire league this season.

Everton have lost just once this season, to ourselves. We have lost four and sit one point behind them. There has to be a correlation between some of our results and the fact United and Chelsea have also experienced poor results against teams previously considered cannon-fodder?

One team won the league by 12 points last year, the other, another European trophy, having recruited top players the previous summer, and who also spent an additional £60m this time around, with Mourinho at the helm.

All three teams changed manager, so allowances have obviously been made.

Moyes and Mourinho have vast experience of the English league, yet plenty don't wish to afford Pellegrini any type of slack whatsoever after 11 games, sitting a couple of points behind both.

Pellers is getting quite a bit of slack. Yes some are calling him names but christ on a bike we are fucking 8th so hey live with it. Besides no matter who we had in charge and no matter how well they were doing posters on here would still be moaning about something. Its a forum. Its just the way it is.

Pellers problem is 'we have the best squad in the PL'. This is according to Pellers, the bookies and anyone who cares to look. If this is the starting point then anything less than top spot (a place we have frequented a lot over the last two seasons) starts to look less than impressive. If we were second and 6 points behind the leader there would be grumbling but ok we are still 2nd. Unfortunately we are 8th meaning 7 teams have made a better job of the opening quarter of the season and some with a much harder run of games which for the best squad in the PL isn't exactly a glowing endorsement. That there is name calling isn't the surprise. The surprise is that there hasn't been a lot more.

Personally I think we go relatively easy on the guy as no one in their right mind thinks F&T will get rid so we have no other choice other than blame the players, the ref or both and ease some frustration by calling him clueless and pray that he will get it right because right now praying is our only fucking hope.

 

[leewill31]

Pellegrini really is getting a seriously raw deal from some on here.

I've seen 'clueless', 'clown', 'yes man', that's more character assassination than managerial critique?

A guy who flew home to Chile to attend the funeral of his mother and flew back straight away for a meaningless friendly in the Far East.

I don't think anyone should be any doubt over his commitment to get it right. Question the ability to get it right, sure, but a lot of the comments still seem rooted in resentment rather than rationale?

We are also being let down by long-term offenders that even Mancini could not bring into line.

Every bit of this is spot fuckin on.

The manager has not been to 'blame' for any of the 4 defeats.

Errors, lack of concentration and in yesterday's case a completely vile lack of application and desire from the players.

This works the other way round as well.

After great performances and great results people come on here and give a slight nod to the manager 'getting it right'.

What 99% of you are missing on your analysis is that whether we hammer Norwich 7- 0 or utd 4-1 or lose to Sunderland or Cardiff, it's the players who deliver those performances and results not the manager. They are out there in the pitch doing what they do.

7-0 Norwich
4-1 utd
5-2 cska
2-1 cska
3-0 plzen
4-0 Newcastle
3-1 Everton
2-0 hull
3-1 west ham

8 wins, 33 goals scored, 6 conceded.

0-1 Sunderland
2-3 villa
2-3 Cardiff
1-2 Chelsea
1-3 Bayern

5 losses, 6 goals scored, 12 conceded.

That clearly points to a Jekyll and Hyde team mindset and lazy or arrogant or both approach to some games .

If some of you think all this is down to one man you are delusional beyond words.

It's the players. The top set of results proves that.. The bottom set of results confirms it beyond dispute.

Player errors, key injuries, lack of application and desire at times.

Not the manager.

Hang on, are you serious? It's up to the manager to sort out arrogant or lazy attitudes, it's up to the manager to get his team performing at the level required. It's up to the manager and coaching staff to reduce the number of errors that players make.

By your reasoning no manager would ever be sacked for poor results. As I said earlier I'm not after Pellegrini's head but he sure as hell has to share responsibility for the poor away results up to now.

i dont think i have seen pelli ever shy away from taking any responsibility from these poor away results but i feel for the guy he looks baffled at how we have lost these games and by rights its not the fact we have played poor but individual errors and dare i say the fact we need more quality at the back.

 

[Anonymous]

It’s hard for a manager to come into a new league and adapt straight away – but at the end of the day that’s the job he’s taken on and he has to be judged accordingly. So far you can’t come to any other conclusion than it’s been a very poor start.

Actually, that's a conclusion you can draw, but it's not the only conclusion which can be drawn. For me it's been an ok start to the season, but very poor feels like a gross exaggeration even if we are just playing semantics. Here's why ... we've qualified from our CL group. Our home form and record remains intact. We've played one derby and won it comfortably. Some of our key underperforming players from last season are looking much improved. And twice we've lost multiple players to injury in the same position, which although not an excuse, certainly mitigates performances that aren't up to scratch.

I do agree that football is very unforgiving at the highest level and time isn't really a luxury managers have. But it's all relative - and Pellegrini will without question be given not just this season, but next season too, to achieve the targets that have been set him. I don't for one minute believe our owners would countenance a sacking unless something genuinely unacceptable (finishing outside the top4 - not getting out of our CL group again) happened, and I don't think there's any chance of the former happening and the latter has already been dealt with in a satisfactory manner.

 

[supercity88]

Pellegrini has been given an objective of 5 trophies in 5 years. That is what the club wants overall within its 5 year plan. If Manuel failed to get us out of the group stage he would be a step closer to the sack. He hasn't. But the likelihood is we wont win it so we need to finish top 4. If he fails then he will go. I think if he wins the FA Cup and fails to get top 4 he will still go. Champions League place is minimum requirement. He will not be expected to win league, in my opinion given the situation at other clubs it is frustrating not to be closer to the top. If we fail to win the league this year we will have missed an opportunity. The league is there for the taking and if we had have maintained that stability with Mancini we would probably be in a better position. Now that is not really here or there, because I do believe in terms of our general progression as a club a change was required. I have faith in Pellegrini, because similar to Tolmie, I look at Mancini who gave players a bollocking and failed to get the to perform, and I look at Pellegrini who nurtures and supports but fails to get them to perform. A time comes when you have to say, okay then these players are simply either not good enough or their mentality is wrong. How is there such a stark contrast between home and away form? Luck has played a part. Poor defending has played a part. In general we have deserved more than we have but the fact is we now need to perform in pressure games. Consistency is key, the Rags have lost to Liverpool and ourselves, drawn to Chelsea but with that win against Arsenal are right back in it. If you can win the games that are easy on paper, you can afford to slip up away here and there to a rival like Arsenal just have. We have only had two real tests this season, one at home we got three points and one away we got nothing from. Our away form needs to improve, but what needs to be done? We have tried nearly everything. Whilst I am confident things will improve and I am relieved that we are still in the mix. It is a real frustration because we have tough games to come and we really should be higher up the table.

Pellegrini is playing the long game and sticking to his guns which is important. Our high defensive line is exploiting how poor our defence is and we are suffering but I do believe that it is the way to play the game in this modern era. Our goal is to compete with Bayern and Barca on the European stage and to do so we have to play a possession based game.

 

[Begbie]

Pellegrini really is getting a seriously raw deal from some on here.

I've seen 'clueless', 'clown', 'yes man', that's more character assassination than managerial critique?

A guy who flew home to Chile to attend the funeral of his mother and flew back straight away for a meaningless friendly in the Far East.

I don't think anyone should be any doubt over his commitment to get it right. Question the ability to get it right, sure, but a lot of the comments still seem rooted in resentment rather than rationale?

We are also being let down by long-term offenders that even Mancini could not bring into line.

much like the resentment for Mancini?

it strikes me as odd that people didnt have the patience for Mancini to get it right in Europe but they have the patience for Pelligrini to get it right at home

money talks?

 

[BobKowalski]

i dont think i have seen pelli ever shy away from taking any responsibility from these poor away results but i feel for the guy he looks baffled at how we have lost these games and by rights its not the fact we have played poor but individual errors and dare i say the fact we need more quality at the back.

I'm not sure 'looking baffled' is the best way forward for Pellers or any coach. Hell even if he is baffled at least pretend you ain't and at least look like you have identified the problem or problems. Perception is king and all that.

 

[crystal_mais]

Pellegrini really is getting a seriously raw deal from some on here.

I've seen 'clueless', 'clown', 'yes man', that's more character assassination than managerial critique?

A guy who flew home to Chile to attend the funeral of his mother and flew back straight away for a meaningless friendly in the Far East.

I don't think anyone should be any doubt over his commitment to get it right. Question the ability to get it right, sure, but a lot of the comments still seem rooted in resentment rather than rationale?

We are also being let down by long-term offenders that even Mancini could not bring into line.

Tolm - a lot of is is frustration at what happened to Mancini and there are some who just can't get over it and will deliver as much senseless abuse in MP's direction - some can't move on, but comparisons are going to be made as he was reasonably successful.

The issue here is - are the board going to back MP into making the changes required to get the results. If this form continues, sooner or later players will start to have doubts. My biggest concern is the reliant on certain players. Mancini had go to men in the team and it is looking that way for MP -

MP needs time, but there are some bad apples that need to be shifted, unfortunately their attitude has not improved even with a change of management - we have Southampton and WBA away coming up and both teams are flying - a rocket needs to be delivered up the arses of the players. Be it from MP and even sanction Khaldoon to come down hard.

Not so much bad apples, mate, simply bad players in regards being good enough for our present squad.

Highly-paid individuals who struck the lottery thanks to the position we found ourselves in when this incredible journey started. We had to buy a certain tier of player to progress.

Those players get knocked down the pecking order as we then buy players of a higher standing. Those limitations are cruelly exposed when we are forced to utilise the squad, as the comparisons with the hallmarks players then become even more pronounced, as do the disparity in results.

We simply even-up the scale when we go up against teams with players of a similar ilk, who still want to get the better of big bad Manchester City.

A bit like Fergie Time, we have somehow allowed a psyche to develop throughout the league in last 18 months or so. One which emboldens the opposition to run that extra yard because they know they have a template to achieve a result.

Very surprising - considering what is available to them to achieve - I sometimes look at the hunger level - for me I love Yaya for everything he has done and what he can do when he is up for it - but he is the leader out there and needs to be setting the example - the general on the pitch for MP -

I know it may take longer, but surely its time for him to start making a statement to others too. Anymore like yesterday is not acceptable

 

[Anonymous]

Very surprising - considering what is available to them to achieve - I sometimes look at the hunger level - for me I love Yaya for everything he has done and what he can do when he is up for it - but he is the leader out there and needs to be setting the example - the general on the pitch for MP -

I know it may take longer, but surely its time for him to start making a statement to others too. Anymore like yesterday is not acceptable

I think it's worth taking into account where we were in terms of our development as a top team when certain players were signed. Lescott, Milner, Kolarov, and Dzeko in particular were signed before we had even kicked a ball in or qualified for the CL. We had won nothing.

If were were in the market for players in the same position this summer which I suspect we will be, we will find it easier to sign better players.

 

[mancity1]

The problem is that the one that the rags ended up with is above us in the league (with an arguably poorer team) which has got to be a problem for Pellegrini. Can this be turned around ? I hope so and I believe so. There's no point in pretending though that overall 8th place is a poor start. Our get out of jail card lies in the fact that no one else is running away with the league - that's good luck on our part.

We've made a disappointing start in terms of the points haul away from home. I consider that points haul does not reflect the overall quality of the performances, the reasons for taking such a view are well documented by numerous people, and you can either agree or disagree. However, the point Billy makes about the choice made by the club, to go with an attacking manager, is hard to disagree with.

Attack should actually be the best form of defence; especially in our case, as we are conceding the fewest shots at goal. The next three teams in that ranking just happen to have the three best defensive records in the league. If we keep the shots against us at the current levels, it would be very strange indeed not to produce a very significant improvement in our defensive record.

I do really hope that it can improve as you predict OB1, I really do. I guess the next two aways against The Saints and WBA will tell us something.

BS argument would be water tight outside the fact that from Aug through to Dec 2012 we played some of the best attacking football with a water tight defence with a team basically set up the same way it is now and with a number of key players still a the club now that were then.

We couldn't sustain it into the new year for a number of reasons but because of our rock solid defence were able to haul in a stuttering Manure in the final run in. The forward press in those months at home and to some extent away was amazing and we will never repeat the 5-1 Spurs and 6-1 Manure results on their patch in the same season again.

They say its horses for courses and that includes formations and tactics and BS view that there are two types of managers basically is way too simplistic.

Also the style of play is partly if not fully dependant on the individual and collective strengths of your best playing personnel.

There is no doubt that are back four can be improved both in personnel and in the way they are set up.

Any side as Sunderland showed on Sunday can make it difficult for the opposition to score over 90 minutes and they achieved that end quite well.

Again we helped them in that end because we moved the ball forward too slow as we tend to do most in away games or at least have done for a long time now and without Silva ( when he is on song ) away from home our record is poor.

Navas should have scored and Negredo could have scored ( although his header would have been parried if it was on target ) and that was about it.

We defended poorly for their goal and that was all they needed.


What is disturbing is the fact we only have one clean sheet in 6 away from home and conceded 2 or more in three of them.

Its impossible to win a title conceding goals away from home as we have done and continue to do in such numbers and this will continue unless we revert to the style and personnel ( as best as possible allowing for injuries and suspensions ) that got us the 30 plus points away from home in the past three seasons

I reckon we will struggle to obtain 20 points away from home this season so unless we do a Tolmie and win all our home games which I safely say we will not and as such I cannot see us finishing top four.

 

[lancs blue]

Pellegrini has been given an objective of 5 trophies in 5 years. That is what the club wants overall within its 5 year plan. If Manuel failed to get us out of the group stage he would be a step closer to the sack. He hasn't. But the likelihood is we wont win it so we need to finish top 4. If he fails then he will go. I think if he wins the FA Cup and fails to get top 4 he will still go. Champions League place is minimum requirement. He will not be expected to win league, in my opinion given the situation at other clubs it is frustrating not to be closer to the top. If we fail to win the league this year we will have missed an opportunity. The league is there for the taking and if we had have maintained that stability with Mancini we would probably be in a better position. Now that is not really here or there, because I do believe in terms of our general progression as a club a change was required. I have faith in Pellegrini, because similar to Tolmie, I look at Mancini who gave players a bollocking and failed to get the to perform, and I look at Pellegrini who nurtures and supports but fails to get them to perform. A time comes when you have to say, okay then these players are simply either not good enough or their mentality is wrong. How is there such a stark contrast between home and away form? Luck has played a part. Poor defending has played a part. In general we have deserved more than we have but the fact is we now need to perform in pressure games. Consistency is key, the Rags have lost to Liverpool and ourselves, drawn to Chelsea but with that win against Arsenal are right back in it. If you can win the games that are easy on paper, you can afford to slip up away here and there to a rival like Arsenal just have. We have only had two real tests this season, one at home we got three points and one away we got nothing from. Our away form needs to improve, but what needs to be done? We have tried nearly everything. Whilst I am confident things will improve and I am relieved that we are still in the mix. It is a real frustration because we have tough games to come and we really should be higher up the table.

Pellegrini is playing the long game and sticking to his guns which is important. Our high defensive line is exploiting how poor our defence is and we are suffering but I do believe that it is the way to play the game in this modern era. Our goal is to compete with Bayern and Barca on the European stage and to do so we have to play a possession based game.

That is my worry right now if the league remains as tight as it is - it could be one bad result that keeps us out of the top 4 and basically that would mean almost starting from scratch with some top players being bound to leave. When 2 or 3 teams are dominant as has been the case in recent years then as long as we're one of those teams we could carry one or two cock-ups without jeopardising our top 4 place.