Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[ZZmaestro]

Re: Clueless manager

This is one of those threads that will get bumped a few months down the line and all the fairweathers will look like twats.

Plays the same front 6 (apart from 2 forced changes) that scored 12 goals in the last 2 games and yet he gets the blame when they can't score goals against the team joint bottom of the league. Hilarious.

Baffles me how so many people on here come across exactly like those parody fickle fan accounts on twitter.

You obviously don't watch City much. When silva s not in the team we are missing the one player that can open up packed defenses. Mancini had the same problem when Silva lost a bit of form.

Therefore you need plan B which is now Navas on the right. He should have started with him. He also needs to tell Navas to stop running into the middle of the park for no reason and stay out wide to pull the defense open a bit.

He also started with garcia and yaya two of the slowest midfielders in the league at closing down - Yaya is OK when he has someone like Ferdi alongside him who can do the work. This is tactical it was like Moyes playing carrick and Giggs in the same midfield ( it;s to slow). To me it was a no brainer either Rodwell or my prefered option Milner in the middle. Also away from home arguably our best performance ( 2nd half against Chelsea ) we played one up front - this is also another option he could have tried with say milner and Rodwell holding with yaya in a free roll. But he sticks with a 442 type formation which jsut doesn't work.

Nasri/Yaya/Aguero are all players capable of unlocking defences and all 3 played yesterday. Absolute bollocks to say Silva is the only one capable as we've seen all 3 do it on countless occasions.

Navas did absolutely fuck all aside from missing a sitter and never looking up to see that there's no one in the box before constantly losing possession with an aimless cross.

What do the midfield even have to do with anything? We dominated the midfield battle, they barely had a kick in those areas and we had 65% possession.

We lost because our free scoring attack couldn't break them down and playing Navas (who actually played for half the game) from the start wouldn't have changed a thing.

Actually, we faced the same punition Barca had against Chelsea in 2011.
Dominated, but still, unable to unlock the chest, and then, you have the odd goal going their way.
Had the ref been honest and unbiased, we should have played 11 vs 10 and a free kick rewarded for a clear foul on Milner.

But yet, you can't argue that RIchards, Navas and Garcia had a great game, actually, it's quite the opposite,

 

[mancity1]

We’re like lawyers really making the facts tell the story we want them to. I could easily say the fact that other clubs are dropping points and we’re still 8th makes things all the more worrying.

But if i just concentrate on the city matches i’ve seen glaring weaknesses that haven’t been addressed. For example we were brilliant against Moscow but even so there were signs that our defence was having major issues. Again a lot of that is down to kompany but c’est la vie.

For the record i’m usually a very optimistic city fan (if there’s such a thing). And slightly off topic it’s really frustrating me because after every home match i’m walking down that spiral saying to my dad “as good as that was the real test is the next match away at xyz” and each time other than west ham they’ve let us down. Bizarrely it’ s making the experience of watching city at home just as frustrating as watching us away.

Haha that's a really good analogy. I think whether it's a manager or a player we all make arguments rooted in our personal belief of their quality.

On the defensive side, I posted earlier something in reply to Cheesy which I think is hugely relevant but has been largely ignored. To put it simply, after Mancini went we could've appointed anyone and the owners chose a manager who's known for his attacking approach allied with executives who also believe in this approach. This approach does mean you're more open at the back. I can understand why it feels unpalatable after three years of Mancini, but it's the course they've chosen. It's one I wanted too so I won't complain about it but I do understand those who prefer coaches like Mancini/Benitez/Mourinho etc.

I'd be more concerned overall if I felt we weren't getting any better - I really think we are, away from home as well. Certainly in terms of performances. But we are becoming reliant on certain players because the change in system is one which some of our squad either can't deal with or are struggling to deal with.

I hope those certain players extend beyond Yaya , Nasri , Silva , Fernie, Kun and Negrdo BS with Yaya providing no leadership at all in the areas where leadership is needed in games like Sunderland away etc.

Tolmie has already written off seven of our current squad including Englands' keeper that cannot / won't buy in are not good enough to buy in etc and while you can debate the merits of each player and whether they will be at City next season in the here and now we have no hope of a top four finish unless we get some good football out of the remaining players.

 

[Marvin]

Re: Clueless manager

You obviously don't watch City much. When silva s not in the team we are missing the one player that can open up packed defenses. Mancini had the same problem when Silva lost a bit of form.

Therefore you need plan B which is now Navas on the right. He should have started with him. He also needs to tell Navas to stop running into the middle of the park for no reason and stay out wide to pull the defense open a bit.

He also started with garcia and yaya two of the slowest midfielders in the league at closing down - Yaya is OK when he has someone like Ferdi alongside him who can do the work. This is tactical it was like Moyes playing carrick and Giggs in the same midfield ( it;s to slow). To me it was a no brainer either Rodwell or my prefered option Milner in the middle. Also away from home arguably our best performance ( 2nd half against Chelsea ) we played one up front - this is also another option he could have tried with say milner and Rodwell holding with yaya in a free roll. But he sticks with a 442 type formation which jsut doesn't work.

Nasri/Yaya/Aguero are all players capable of unlocking defences and all 3 played yesterday. Absolute bollocks to say Silva is the only one capable as we've seen all 3 do it on countless occasions.

Navas did absolutely fuck all aside from missing a sitter and never looking up to see that there's no one in the box before constantly losing possession with an aimless cross.

What do the midfield even have to do with anything? We dominated the midfield battle, they barely had a kick in those areas and we had 65% possession.

We lost because our free scoring attack couldn't break them down and playing Navas (who actually played for half the game) from the start wouldn't have changed a thing.

Actually, we faced the same punition Barca had against Chelsea in 2011.
Dominated, but still, unable to unlock the chest, and then, you have the odd goal going their way.
Had the ref been honest and unbiased, we should have played 11 vs 10 and a free kick rewarded for a clear foul on Milner.

But yet, you can't argue that RIchards, Navas and Garcia had a great game, actually, it's quite the opposite,

I thought Navas did OK. He saw a lot of the ball, and he was a constant supply of crosses into their box they were all cleared because they had so many men back deep defending their penalty area

It's not easy opening a determined defence up. We snatched at the better chances. That's what happens when the clock is ticking and you are 1 down and you know you should be beating these. Had we scored the floodgates would have opened. It was like playing QPR at 1-1 or 1-2 down.

 

[mcfcphil]

You’re right he was between a rock and a hard place to a certain extent.
But i think a workman-like midfield and just rely on nasri, navas, a pushed on yaya, and aguero to come up with a goal was a lesser evil than Garcia in a two man midfield and starving aguero and negredo of service.
We would have lost a bit of creativity playing the workman-like midfield but with yaya, nasri, navas and aguero on the pitch i think we still had more than enough creativity to beat a piss poor sunderland team

I guess it was a judgement call and the manager made what he thought was the right one. In hindsight maybe it wasn't but he gets paid to make those decisions and he will judged on them all once the season ends.

BTW ... cheers for having a discussion in which we disagree a lot but manage to do it without hating on each other. It's a rare thing at times ... :)

Yes i don’t think anything is clear cut at the moment – anything could happen this season - good and bad.
No problem – until the next time!!

 

[Mattyc55]

He's a nice enough guy and he likes to play attractive football, but there comes a point where you have to draw the line with this away form. It is absolutely shambolic, no matter how much we have supposedly dominated the games. I was there yesterday and I didn't see a goal coming even if we had played for another hour, it was that bad. If he doesn't sort out this shite on the road, he'll be gone and rightly so.

Obviously the league is wide open and there is a long way to go.. But with squad options like Garcia/Milner/Rodwell/Lescott were absolutely fucked if we get an injury in midfield or to Vinny. For all the money we've spent, those options are painful..

 

[teddykgb]

I had to stay away yesterday because I knew how much of a shit show this thread would be. There's a clear desire by many who didn't want to have the last manager ousted to take out their anger on this manager, which is silly and counter productive, but this is how it is.

In my opinion, BOTH managers have been undone by the players, like has been said above. This season has been absurdly impacted by injury, but the players who were signed as expensive depth are either injured or not good enough. You can speak a lot about systems, and I speak quite a bit about them because I think they are important, but there's nothing you can do to force players to take their chances when they come, or to not cock up the one time they're asked to make a defensive play or stop a shot.

IMO, when the manager gets it wrong, you can tell because the team is dominated. Bayern being the classic example, this manager got that one wrong and the team was unable to even get a foothold in the match as a result. A match like yesterday's was always going to be tough. Pointing to all of the changes is illusory, many of them were forced. Counting Richards for Zabs and Kolarov for Clichy is also daft, they've been chopping between those fullbacks for seasons now.

We had plenty of the ball yesterday and absolutely battered them in the 2nd half. They took pretty much their only real chance, off a foul, and converted it. We had Kolarov sending rockets into row ZZ. Aguero, who has been phenomenal, had an off day. The only thing that angered me and hopefully angered the manager as well was the noticeable increase in effort and intensity around 75-80 minutes. If they had played that hard from the start they would have found joy in the match eventually. Yaya, in particular, started suddenly playing late on.

The thing that I hope the manager can address is the way to approach the packed defenses. This is something Mancini didn't unlock, and the early results for MP haven't been much improved. This is very hard, and it probably relies more on the talents of players than a tactical nous by the manager. The thing that was disappointing about this yesterday was that players weren't putting themselves into positions to help, so we were often attacking 6 or 7 versus 10. MIcah/Zabs were running all over the space Navas was trying to occupy. Yaya and Milner were staying deep, while DeMichelis was coming forward like an experienced CB should to try to add to the attack, with him just a few feet away from the CMs. Meanwhile, we know at this point what Navas is going to do, yet we had nobody in the box ready to get onto the ends of those crosses.

The one player I'll give a pass to is Nasri. He worked hard yesterday and tried to be a creative engine, but couldn't really create what we needed. Nonetheless, I don't think he did anything wrong, aside from he and Yaya preferring to pass to each other over other options too often.

 

[Anonymous]

I had to stay away yesterday because I knew how much of a shit show this thread would be. There's a clear desire by many who didn't want to have the last manager ousted to take out their anger on this manager, which is silly and counter productive, but this is how it is.

In my opinion, BOTH managers have been undone by the players, like has been said above. This season has been absurdly impacted by injury, but the players who were signed as expensive depth are either injured or not good enough. You can speak a lot about systems, and I speak quite a bit about them because I think they are important, but there's nothing you can do to force players to take their chances when they come, or to not cock up the one time they're asked to make a defensive play or stop a shot.

IMO, when the manager gets it wrong, you can tell because the team is dominated. Bayern being the classic example, this manager got that one wrong and the team was unable to even get a foothold in the match as a result. A match like yesterday's was always going to be tough. Pointing to all of the changes is illusory, many of them were forced. Counting Richards for Zabs and Kolarov for Clichy is also daft, they've been chopping between those fullbacks for seasons now.

We had plenty of the ball yesterday and absolutely battered them in the 2nd half. They took pretty much their only real chance, off a foul, and converted it. We had Kolarov sending rockets into row ZZ. Aguero, who has been phenomenal, had an off day. The only thing that angered me and hopefully angered the manager as well was the noticeable increase in effort and intensity around 75-80 minutes. If they had played that hard from the start they would have found joy in the match eventually. Yaya, in particular, started suddenly playing late on.

The thing that I hope the manager can address is the way to approach the packed defenses. This is something Mancini didn't unlock, and the early results for MP haven't been much improved. This is very hard, and it probably relies more on the talents of players than a tactical nous by the manager. The thing that was disappointing about this yesterday was that players weren't putting themselves into positions to help, so we were often attacking 6 or 7 versus 10. MIcah/Zabs were running all over the space Navas was trying to occupy. Yaya and Milner were staying deep, while DeMichelis was coming forward like an experienced CB should to try to add to the attack, with him just a few feet away from the CMs. Meanwhile, we know at this point what Navas is going to do, yet we had nobody in the box ready to get onto the ends of those crosses.

The one player I'll give a pass to is Nasri. He worked hard yesterday and tried to be a creative engine, but couldn't really create what we needed. Nonetheless, I don't think he did anything wrong, aside from he and Yaya preferring to pass to each other over other options too often.

That's a very good post and you make lots of very good points.

 

[Marvin]

He's a nice enough guy and he likes to play attractive football, but there comes a point where you have to draw the line with this away form. It is absolutely shambolic, no matter how much we have supposedly dominated the games. I was there yesterday and I didn't see a goal coming even if we had played for another hour, it was that bad. If he doesn't sort out this shite on the road, he'll be gone and rightly so.

Obviously the league is wide open and there is a long way to go.. But with squad options like Garcia/Milner/Rodwell/Lescott were absolutely fucked if we get an injury in midfield or to Vinny. For all the money we've spent, those options are painful..

Agreed

We were camped in their half, but it didn't look like we were ever about to open them up

I don't mind one of Garcia, or even Zabeleta in a defensive midfield if we have injuries to Fernandinho. Perhaps we just mentally weren't right to overcome a 1-0 deficit after all the other away defeats.

To turn it around away from home we need to go into the next game having won our home games, and ideally have Silva back because he just makes football look easy. I'd rest players against Plzen at home getting games into the likes of Dzeko, and Richards and maybe Jovetic? and make sure the likes of Yaya Toure and Nasri are sharp for WBA away

We've got to raise our game now. Anything can happen in a one off game, so I'm not so much bothered about single matches, but we need to ensure that 6 weeks from now we're right back in the title race, and in the League Cup semi-finals.

We kicked it all off with a very half-hearted complacent performance away at Cardiff, and that was Pellegrini's biggest mistake. He should have made damn sure his team made a mark in an important away fixture. Ever since then one thing has led to another away from home. Still all that has gone, and it's time to put matters right

Every season there are moments which come to define a season, and we are approaching that moment now. I'd be more confident if we went into the next run of games at full strength, but for all we know, we may well be, and even without a full complement of players, we are going to do a lot better than we did at Sunderland.

Game on

 

[OB1]

I had to stay away yesterday because I knew how much of a shit show this thread would be. There's a clear desire by many who didn't want to have the last manager ousted to take out their anger on this manager, which is silly and counter productive, but this is how it is.

In my opinion, BOTH managers have been undone by the players, like has been said above. This season has been absurdly impacted by injury, but the players who were signed as expensive depth are either injured or not good enough. You can speak a lot about systems, and I speak quite a bit about them because I think they are important, but there's nothing you can do to force players to take their chances when they come, or to not cock up the one time they're asked to make a defensive play or stop a shot.

IMO, when the manager gets it wrong, you can tell because the team is dominated. Bayern being the classic example, this manager got that one wrong and the team was unable to even get a foothold in the match as a result. A match like yesterday's was always going to be tough. Pointing to all of the changes is illusory, many of them were forced. Counting Richards for Zabs and Kolarov for Clichy is also daft, they've been chopping between those fullbacks for seasons now.

We had plenty of the ball yesterday and absolutely battered them in the 2nd half. They took pretty much their only real chance, off a foul, and converted it. We had Kolarov sending rockets into row ZZ. Aguero, who has been phenomenal, had an off day. The only thing that angered me and hopefully angered the manager as well was the noticeable increase in effort and intensity around 75-80 minutes. If they had played that hard from the start they would have found joy in the match eventually. Yaya, in particular, started suddenly playing late on.

The thing that I hope the manager can address is the way to approach the packed defenses. This is something Mancini didn't unlock, and the early results for MP haven't been much improved. This is very hard, and it probably relies more on the talents of players than a tactical nous by the manager. The thing that was disappointing about this yesterday was that players weren't putting themselves into positions to help, so we were often attacking 6 or 7 versus 10. MIcah/Zabs were running all over the space Navas was trying to occupy. Yaya and Milner were staying deep, while DeMichelis was coming forward like an experienced CB should to try to add to the attack, with him just a few feet away from the CMs. Meanwhile, we know at this point what Navas is going to do, yet we had nobody in the box ready to get onto the ends of those crosses.

The one player I'll give a pass to is Nasri. He worked hard yesterday and tried to be a creative engine, but couldn't really create what we needed. Nonetheless, I don't think he did anything wrong, aside from he and Yaya preferring to pass to each other over other options too often.

That's a very good post and you make lots of very good points.

Yup.

 

[cibaman]

Given injury to Silva and Fernandinho, I'm not sure Pellegrini had that many midfield options apart from Garcia

It was a choice between Rodwell and Garcia. And Rodwell has not played enough games yet to come in and perform at an adequate level.

Much has been said about the fullbacks and Garcia, but the issue was more the failure of the team as a whole to make more from the virtual monopoly of possession we enjoyed.

We had almost 65% possession, 14 corners to none and 12 shots on target to their 2, but rarely did we create a clear cut chance. I'm not of the opinion that Rodwell, or Clichy and Zab would have altered matters much. The team played under pressure and couldn't handle it.

The ideal and easiest way out of this is to get Kompany and Silva fit. But if that does not happen we have to just grind out a couple of away wins. Once we do that, I'm sure that will be the end of this little chapter. It's just become a psychological issue, like winning in Europe last season.

I thought the number of shots we had was partly responsible for our defeat. Most of them were aimless, both literally and figuratively. Players shooting when they had 3 defenders stood 5 yards in front of them and easily able to make the block. Or wild swings at the ball without getting balanced. It seemed that we were shooting instead of trying to create genuine shooting chances. Going for glory rather than setting up goal scoring opportunities.

I don't think that we lost because of tactics or selection. The players had scored 12 goals in the last two games and seemed to go into yesterday's game assuming it would be more of the same.