Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 4)

[NQCitizen]

Pellegrini will be hot on the lips of fans and media after Baggies and Saints away. Let us hope it is all positive. I hope he proves the doubters wrong.

It's clear to nearly everyone that we are moving in the right direction under the manager. Those who doubt his ability to win the big trophies are entitled to that opinion as he hasn't so far won any in Europe, but any doubt about whether or not he was the right appointment is wildly misplaced. We got the best manager on the market this summer with the exception of Jose, and for that we should be very grateful.

That's all pretty fair, apart from the exclusion of Carlo Ancellotti.

 

[aguero93:20]

That space is the biggest concern i have. Shelvey kept finding himself in acres of space between our defence and midfield. Shelvey is shit so we got away with it. But when we're playing teams like bayern etc if you give that kind of space away they will kill you.

At the moment i'm not too sure what the answer is because to solve it means either dropping yaya or changing formation and neither of those things will happen.

Kompany being back will help matters because he has the pace to step out of the line and still get back. It will be pellegrini's defining move for me though. If he gets it right then we will beat anyone who comes in our path. And i mean anyone.

I totally agree with the point you made about Shelvey, Laudrup certainly done his homework in regards playing between the lines and utilising the space.

A better team would've punished us with them tactics and everytime Demichelis stepped out of defence to close down the space my heart was in my mouth, like you say Kompany can recover but Demichelis got done a couple of times committing himself too early.

I would like to think he'd drop Dinho in front of the back four against the better sides to counter this like he did against Chelsea, playing the De Jong role so to speak?[/quote]

Even though Fernandinho played deeper, surely it was Garcia who played the De Jong role against Chelsea

yep it was, and it was his best performance of the season (not saying much) id like to see vinny in midfield if were going to play 3 there, demich and lescott are playing v well, just need more protection, and vinnies ten times the holding midfielder Garcia is

 

[franksinatra]

That space is the biggest concern i have. Shelvey kept finding himself in acres of space between our defence and midfield. Shelvey is shit so we got away with it. But when we're playing teams like bayern etc if you give that kind of space away they will kill you.

At the moment i'm not too sure what the answer is because to solve it means either dropping yaya or changing formation and neither of those things will happen.

Kompany being back will help matters because he has the pace to step out of the line and still get back. It will be pellegrini's defining move for me though. If he gets it right then we will beat anyone who comes in our path. And i mean anyone.

Yep. It's fascinating stuff. I mean the natural reaction is obviously "Well we play five in midfield" at places like Old Trafford and Highbury. But the temptation to put Aguero and Negredo up against anyone is huge. What a fucking handful they are for any back four in the country. I bet Michael Dawson and Rio Ferdinand wake up sweating in the night thinking of those two. I totally and utterly agree with your last sentence too.

It really is fascinating. I don't know if it is a huge dilemma for our manager but it is for me: should we start with one up front in any of our coming league games?

My favoured formation at the moment is a Peppy 4-3-3; probably followed by a 4-2-3-1 but when you have such a sublime pairing of Aguero and Negredo, how can not start them as a front two!

I really can't imagine them not starting at WBA. I don't really want to think about Southampton until we have seen what happens at WBA.

I hope that Pellegrini is actually talking to his players; especially the senior ones about how they would prefer to line-up against WBA because I think that is important. I remain convinced that the biggest issue away from home is a mental one and the players need to believe that they have the right formation and tactics for the next game. I would hope that the players want to go out with the same (sort of ) line-up as we have had in the last two home games and that they have the confidence to go out and play like they have in those games.

The obvious solution is to add an additional midfielder however losing one of Negredo or Aguero would negate any benefit due to their form over the current season.

I still think two in midfield is adequate but needs better communication and discipline between the two midfielders. Yaya is too often getting caught upfield and due to his engine/build struggled to get back into position. If the midfield situation proved so critical, for example against Arsenal, I would prefer Yaya in a deeper role than lose one of Negredo/Aguero.

Interestingly MOTD2 highlighted how Chelsea, by introducing a second striker and forfeiting the numbers in Midfield, managed to alter the course of the game against Southampton. That for me would be a better solution than changing the formation.

I think it will be interesting to see how the additional burden on Yaya affects his form over the course of the season. Milners athleticism could prove crucial in that position over the course of the season.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Yep. It's fascinating stuff. I mean the natural reaction is obviously "Well we play five in midfield" at places like Old Trafford and Highbury. But the temptation to put Aguero and Negredo up against anyone is huge. What a fucking handful they are for any back four in the country. I bet Michael Dawson and Rio Ferdinand wake up sweating in the night thinking of those two. I totally and utterly agree with your last sentence too.

It really is fascinating. I don't know if it is a huge dilemma for our manager but it is for me: should we start with one up front in any of our coming league games?

My favoured formation at the moment is a Peppy 4-3-3; probably followed by a 4-2-3-1 but when you have such a sublime pairing of Aguero and Negredo, how can not start them as a front two!

I really can't imagine them not starting at WBA. I don't really want to think about Southampton until we have seen what happens at WBA.

I hope that Pellegrini is actually talking to his players; especially the senior ones about how they would prefer to line-up against WBA because I think that is important. I remain convinced that the biggest issue away from home is a mental one and the players need to believe that they have the right formation and tactics for the next game. I would hope that the players want to go out with the same (sort of ) line-up as we have had in the last two home games and that they have the confidence to go out and play like they have in those games.

The obvious solution is to add an additional midfielder however losing one of Negredo or Aguero would negate any benefit due to their form over the current season.

I still think two in midfield is adequate but needs better communication and discipline between the two midfielders. Yaya is too often getting caught upfield and due to his engine/build struggled to get back into position. If the midfield situation proved so critical, for example against Arsenal, I would prefer Yaya in a deeper role than lose one of Negredo/Aguero.

Interestingly MOTD2 highlighted how Chelsea, by introducing a second striker and forfeiting the numbers in Midfield, managed to alter the course of the game against Southampton. That for me would be a better solution than changing the formation.

I think it will be interesting to see how the additional burden on Yaya affects his form over the course of the season. Milners athleticism could prove crucial in that position over the course of the season.

You're right to highlight Ya Ya as "the problem" for want of a better word. Maybe "conundrum" might be better because he will never be able to defend or recover ground quickly. And if he's not bombing forward you're not utilising him properly.

What I think did happen on Saturday is that late in the first half the manager instructed the defence to step up, and Fernandinho to do the same, and Ya Ya to bide his time getting forward. The three things in combination closed up the hole Swansea were playing in and completely shut them out of the game. So the manager did show that this formation, if it plays properly, can close up that space.

It was different against Bayern, but in mitigation, we had Dzeko kept losing possession and we had no Silva to put them on the back foot. It isn't total mitigation though.

 

[franksinatra]

It really is fascinating. I don't know if it is a huge dilemma for our manager but it is for me: should we start with one up front in any of our coming league games?

My favoured formation at the moment is a Peppy 4-3-3; probably followed by a 4-2-3-1 but when you have such a sublime pairing of Aguero and Negredo, how can not start them as a front two!

I really can't imagine them not starting at WBA. I don't really want to think about Southampton until we have seen what happens at WBA.

I hope that Pellegrini is actually talking to his players; especially the senior ones about how they would prefer to line-up against WBA because I think that is important. I remain convinced that the biggest issue away from home is a mental one and the players need to believe that they have the right formation and tactics for the next game. I would hope that the players want to go out with the same (sort of ) line-up as we have had in the last two home games and that they have the confidence to go out and play like they have in those games.

The obvious solution is to add an additional midfielder however losing one of Negredo or Aguero would negate any benefit due to their form over the current season.

I still think two in midfield is adequate but needs better communication and discipline between the two midfielders. Yaya is too often getting caught upfield and due to his engine/build struggled to get back into position. If the midfield situation proved so critical, for example against Arsenal, I would prefer Yaya in a deeper role than lose one of Negredo/Aguero.

Interestingly MOTD2 highlighted how Chelsea, by introducing a second striker and forfeiting the numbers in Midfield, managed to alter the course of the game against Southampton. That for me would be a better solution than changing the formation.

I think it will be interesting to see how the additional burden on Yaya affects his form over the course of the season. Milners athleticism could prove crucial in that position over the course of the season.

You're right to highlight Ya Ya as "the problem" for want of a better word. Maybe "conundrum" might be better because he will never be able to defend or recover ground quickly. And if he's not bombing forward you're not utilising him properly.

What I think did happen on Saturday is that late in the first half the manager instructed the defence to step up, and Fernandinho to do the same, and Ya Ya to bide his time getting forward. The three things in combination closed up the hole Swansea were playing in and completely shut them out of the game. So the manager did show that this formation, if it plays properly, can close up that space.

It was different against Bayern, but in mitigation, we had Dzeko kept losing possession and we had no Silva to put them on the back foot. It isn't total mitigation though.

That is the key, the defence stepping up to close the game down and again is something which should improve when Kompany returns to the side. At the moment we lack a bit of pace centrally and so its natural that the defenders, will retreat due to the fear of the opposition getting in behind the team.

Agree with the Dzeko comments completely. His failure to hold up play does not allow the team to build the play, enable the defence to push forward with any certainty. What did worry me,on occasions. it seemed we had neither Fernandinho or Yaya centrally with the likes of Shelvey taking a pot shot. Ozil for example, given that type of space, would open us up constantly.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

The obvious solution is to add an additional midfielder however losing one of Negredo or Aguero would negate any benefit due to their form over the current season.

I still think two in midfield is adequate but needs better communication and discipline between the two midfielders. Yaya is too often getting caught upfield and due to his engine/build struggled to get back into position. If the midfield situation proved so critical, for example against Arsenal, I would prefer Yaya in a deeper role than lose one of Negredo/Aguero.

Interestingly MOTD2 highlighted how Chelsea, by introducing a second striker and forfeiting the numbers in Midfield, managed to alter the course of the game against Southampton. That for me would be a better solution than changing the formation.

I think it will be interesting to see how the additional burden on Yaya affects his form over the course of the season. Milners athleticism could prove crucial in that position over the course of the season.

You're right to highlight Ya Ya as "the problem" for want of a better word. Maybe "conundrum" might be better because he will never be able to defend or recover ground quickly. And if he's not bombing forward you're not utilising him properly.

What I think did happen on Saturday is that late in the first half the manager instructed the defence to step up, and Fernandinho to do the same, and Ya Ya to bide his time getting forward. The three things in combination closed up the hole Swansea were playing in and completely shut them out of the game. So the manager did show that this formation, if it plays properly, can close up that space.

It was different against Bayern, but in mitigation, we had Dzeko kept losing possession and we had no Silva to put them on the back foot. It isn't total mitigation though.

That is the key, the defence stepping up to close the game down and again is something which should improve when Kompany returns to the side. At the moment we lack a bit of pace centrally and so its natural that the defenders, will retreat due to the fear of the opposition getting in behind the team.

Agree with the Dzeko comments completely. His failure to hold up play does not allow the team to build the play, enable the defence to push forward with any certainty. What did worry me,on occasions. it seemed we had neither Fernandinho or Yaya centrally with the likes of Shelvey taking a pot shot. Ozil for example, given that type of space, would open us up constantly.

Vinny is absolutely brilliant at stepping up. And yes, we've adjusted our game to allow for his absence. And there certainly was a big hole there at times in the first half. I don't think - or at least I hope - that that won't happen against Arsenal, though. Rooney is a brilliant exploiter of that space too and we didn't give him a kick. What I'm starting to see in these home matches is that there is flexibility in this system. Games like Norwich, Ya Ya played right up on their backline. Yesterday second half we've just discussed.

The other thing is, though, that even if the likes of Arsenal do create chances from between the lines, the way we are playing they are going to need to score half a dozen to win!

 

[OB1]

You're right to highlight Ya Ya as "the problem" for want of a better word. Maybe "conundrum" might be better because he will never be able to defend or recover ground quickly. And if he's not bombing forward you're not utilising him properly.

What I think did happen on Saturday is that late in the first half the manager instructed the defence to step up, and Fernandinho to do the same, and Ya Ya to bide his time getting forward. The three things in combination closed up the hole Swansea were playing in and completely shut them out of the game. So the manager did show that this formation, if it plays properly, can close up that space.

It was different against Bayern, but in mitigation, we had Dzeko kept losing possession and we had no Silva to put them on the back foot. It isn't total mitigation though.

That is the key, the defence stepping up to close the game down and again is something which should improve when Kompany returns to the side. At the moment we lack a bit of pace centrally and so its natural that the defenders, will retreat due to the fear of the opposition getting in behind the team.

Agree with the Dzeko comments completely. His failure to hold up play does not allow the team to build the play, enable the defence to push forward with any certainty. What did worry me,on occasions. it seemed we had neither Fernandinho or Yaya centrally with the likes of Shelvey taking a pot shot. Ozil for example, given that type of space, would open us up constantly.

Vinny is absolutely brilliant at stepping up. And yes, we've adjusted our game to allow for his absence. And there certainly was a big hole there at times in the first half. I don't think - or at least I hope - that that won't happen against Arsenal, though. Rooney is a brilliant exploiter of that space too and we didn't give him a kick. What I'm starting to see in these home matches is that there is flexibility in this system. Games like Norwich, Ya Ya played right up on their backline. Yesterday second half we've just discussed.

The other thing is, though, that even if the likes of Arsenal do create chances from between the lines, the way we are playing they are going to need to score half a dozen to win!

Whatever holes there were yesterday - and there were some, with Yaya, in particular, being bypassed - Swansea rarely got beyond our 18 yard line and even more rarely got into our box.

 

[franksinatra]

You're right to highlight Ya Ya as "the problem" for want of a better word. Maybe "conundrum" might be better because he will never be able to defend or recover ground quickly. And if he's not bombing forward you're not utilising him properly.

What I think did happen on Saturday is that late in the first half the manager instructed the defence to step up, and Fernandinho to do the same, and Ya Ya to bide his time getting forward. The three things in combination closed up the hole Swansea were playing in and completely shut them out of the game. So the manager did show that this formation, if it plays properly, can close up that space.

It was different against Bayern, but in mitigation, we had Dzeko kept losing possession and we had no Silva to put them on the back foot. It isn't total mitigation though.

That is the key, the defence stepping up to close the game down and again is something which should improve when Kompany returns to the side. At the moment we lack a bit of pace centrally and so its natural that the defenders, will retreat due to the fear of the opposition getting in behind the team.

Agree with the Dzeko comments completely. His failure to hold up play does not allow the team to build the play, enable the defence to push forward with any certainty. What did worry me,on occasions. it seemed we had neither Fernandinho or Yaya centrally with the likes of Shelvey taking a pot shot. Ozil for example, given that type of space, would open us up constantly.

Vinny is absolutely brilliant at stepping up. And yes, we've adjusted our game to allow for his absence. And there certainly was a big hole there at times in the first half. I don't think - or at least I hope - that that won't happen against Arsenal, though. Rooney is a brilliant exploiter of that space too and we didn't give him a kick. What I'm starting to see in these home matches is that there is flexibility in this system. Games like Norwich, Ya Ya played right up on their backline. Yesterday second half we've just discussed.

The other thing is, though, that even if the likes of Arsenal do create chances from between the lines, the way we are playing they are going to need to score half a dozen to win!

Funnily enough, considering his comments, in the absence of Kompany, Kolo Toure would be ideally suited to organising the defence and providing the additional pace required to suit the current system.

I do think it will come back to haunt us being so often and although we tightened up second half it does go against the natural characteristics of the likes of Yaya. Still it is enjoyable to watch and quite happy to watch a few goal shootouts.

 

[cleavers]

Whatever holes there were yesterday - and there were some, with Yaya, in particular, being bypassed - Swansea rarely got beyond our 18 yard line and even more rarely got into our box.

Something a lot of people have not given credit for, it was for me, one of the biggest plusses of the game, they also rarely got behind us down the flanks either, the defence have (rightly so) been hammered this season, but they were good yesterday, with Clichy in particular having his best game of the season. I also don't understand the criticism aimed at Demichellis, he's improving with every game, and he's not slow like some complain, it is bound to take time to adjust to the speed in the english game, and he's doing just that.

One other thing regards the CL (and apologies to those making the trip), we have qualified, and we won't win the group, and if we progress further than the round of 16, we may have to meet Bayern again, so I wouldn't expose our first team to them next week. We've 3 hugely important league games now, they could make or break our league season, and we need to use the full resources available in all 3.

 

[OB1]

Whatever holes there were yesterday - and there were some, with Yaya, in particular, being bypassed - Swansea rarely got beyond our 18 yard line and even more rarely got into our box.

Something a lot of people have not given credit for, it was for me, one of the biggest plusses of the game, they also rarely got behind us down the flanks either, the defence have (rightly so) been hammered this season, but they were good yesterday, with Clichy in particular having his best game of the season. I also don't understand the criticism aimed at Demichellis, he's improving with every game, and he's not slow like some complain, it is bound to take time to adjust to the speed in the english game, and he's doing just that.

One other thing regards the CL (and apologies to those making the trip), we have qualified, and we won't win the group, and if we progress further than the round of 16, we may have to meet Bayern again, so I wouldn't expose our first team to them next week. We've 3 hugely important league games now, they could make or break our league season, and we need to use the full resources available in all 3.

That's what I meant (i.e. taking the mine all the way across the pitch) :-). United game was similar and Spurs.

I agree about Clichy and Demichelis. MD had one notably unfortunate moment yesterday defensively but otherwise did well. MD's experience was very apparent again yesterday; as was his partner Lescott's.