Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2014/15 (continued)

[Damocles]

1 Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich are no more special than United, Liverpool and Arsenal.
All they are is higher up the food chain.

All I suggested is that they are higher up the food chain.

2 The "right way of doing things" is the Ajax way. Their academy is the model for all others and yes they have brought
through a lot of top players over the years albeit they have the pick of the best young players in the Netherlands.
Ajax have not been consistently successful in Europe however because they have lacked the financial clout of the big boys.
This was even in evidence in the '70s when they lost Cryuff and Neeskens to Barcelona. Juventus who have been funded
for decades by the Agnelli family are in the CL final whilst PSG are far more likely to win the CL before Ajax win it again.
Youth development is important but it is generally trumped by finance. Luckily we are working on both.

This isn't the 1970s or 80s; the average youth player costs the club £2m. A top class player is moving for £30m now and that will only go up.

3 Vision, identity and values are irrelevant when you have a manager who can't organise a defence, close out a win when 2-0 up
or even get the team to take a decent corner.

Luckily there's no professional manager working today in football who doesn't understand the basic ideals of football theory so this hasn't come up.

Vision, identity and values are the difference between Barcelona and Zenit St Petersburg. In the modern football world you cannot afford to not afford values

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

3 Vision, identity and values are irrelevant when you have a manager who can't organise a defence, close out a win when 2-0 up
or even get the team to take a decent corner.

We have won nine competitive fixtures by 1 or 2 nil this season so obviously he can get his team to close out such games.

I'm not a fan of the offside trap but City's is effective and provides clear evidence of the ability to organise a defence.

Our corners have been a problem this season but the worst part has been the delivery of the person taking the kick and Pellegrini has given several players a go at it. I'd prefer we went for more inswingers but they will be no more effective if the delivery is poor. The problems with corners are mainly down to the players' poor execution. That said, after a long dry spell, we have started to score from corners again and Mangala alone had three headers from (our) corners on Sunday.

I don't know why you bother mate when all you are faced with are tired old clichés that are based on nothing more than hate half the time rather than actual facts.

Pellegrini is far from perfect but in his time with us so far he has more than delivered.

LOL. Tired old cliches? Yes they are cliches because they are true.

I don't hate Pellegrini, like I didn't hate Mancini. Both contributed but both are/were flawed. It's time to move to the next level
and we won't do that with Pellegrini. Let's give him a great send off on Sunday. He deserves that after his two trophies last season
but please God don't keep him for next season. With money to spend, the core of a really good team and a new manager we could
regain the title and really give it a good go in the CL next season. Retain Pellegrini and we will achieve nothing in Europe again and have
to score 100+ to have a chance of winning the league. As for actual facts: how many times have we let a 2-0 lead slip?
The defence looks vulnerable every time we lose possession. Why do you think we get so many players booked for professional fouls?
Why can't we defend balls punted down the middle? I know what a great team looks like and we're not it. We could have been seriously
embarrassed by the scum (who are mediocre).When did that last happen? We've got great players playing from memory at the moment
to get us over the line. This must not continue.We may not get away with it next season.

 

[cleavers]

As for actual facts: how many times have we let a 2-0 lead slip?

Its 6 in total, 5 in the league, however we've not "let them slip", because we've won 4 (Hull A, Sunderland H, Villa H, Swansea A), and drawn 1 (Burnley), the other was in the CL, and we drew that too. There's also numerous games where we have been 2-0 up, and not "let it slip", and just won.

So winning games isn't good enough now ?

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

1 Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich are no more special than United, Liverpool and Arsenal.
All they are is higher up the food chain.

All I suggested is that they are higher up the food chain.

2 The "right way of doing things" is the Ajax way. Their academy is the model for all others and yes they have brought
through a lot of top players over the years albeit they have the pick of the best young players in the Netherlands.
Ajax have not been consistently successful in Europe however because they have lacked the financial clout of the big boys.
This was even in evidence in the '70s when they lost Cryuff and Neeskens to Barcelona. Juventus who have been funded
for decades by the Agnelli family are in the CL final whilst PSG are far more likely to win the CL before Ajax win it again.
Youth development is important but it is generally trumped by finance. Luckily we are working on both.

This isn't the 1970s or 80s; the average youth player costs the club £2m. A top class player is moving for £30m now and that will only go up.

3 Vision, identity and values are irrelevant when you have a manager who can't organise a defence, close out a win when 2-0 up
or even get the team to take a decent corner.

Luckily there's no professional manager working today in football who doesn't understand the basic ideals of football theory so this hasn't come up.

Vision, identity and values are the difference between Barcelona and Zenit St Petersburg. In the modern football world you cannot afford to not afford values

Okay what exactly do you mean with vision, identity and values? No management speak and just two or three sentences please.
What are Real Madrid's vision, identity and values? They're the biggest club on the planet and the club we ultimately want to
depose.

For me all a club needs are: a good manager with a balanced system of play, good players, a good youth structure with decent scouts
and coaches and plenty of cash, Ideally you also want a DoF / Football Administrator who is independent (but subservient to the manager)
to prove continuity if the manager leaves. That's it.

Soriano appears to know what he's doing making the cash albeit he's been helped by Tom Glick, owner friendly sponsors and
success on the field. Txiki and Pellegrini are the guys under fire for questionable purchases and a shite defence.

Glad to see you agree that Real, Barca and Bayern are nothing special and, if I understand your response to my second point
correctly, that cash trumps everything.

 

[BobKowalski]

As for actual facts: how many times have we let a 2-0 lead slip?

Its 6 in total, 5 in the league, however we've not "let them slip", because we've won 4 (Hull A, Sunderland H, Villa H, Swansea A), and drawn 1 (Burnley), the other was in the CL, and we drew that too. There's also numerous games where we have been 2-0 up, and not "let it slip", and just won.

So winning games isn't good enough now ?

No we did let a 2-0 lead slip on 6 occasions. I think for a top side that is poor. It indicates a sloppy attitude, a lack of concentration. This lack of concentration or inability to do our job properly is why Chelsea are champions and we aren't. So no winning games isn't good enough. Performance and how we go about our job on the pitch is also important. At least according to Ferran it is so if you have a problem with it take it up with him.

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

As for actual facts: how many times have we let a 2-0 lead slip?

Its 6 in total, 5 in the league, however we've not "let them slip", because we've won 4 (Hull A, Sunderland H, Villa H, Swansea A), and drawn 1 (Burnley), the other was in the CL, and we drew that too. There's also numerous games where we have been 2-0 up, and not "let it slip", and just won.

So winning games isn't good enough now ?

Frankly NO it isn't.

If we'd beaten Barcelona 3-2 in an end to end game where Messi scored twice through sheer brilliance to bring it back to
2-2 but we went on to win then of course it would be. CSKA Moscow and the teams you listed above are not of that calibre.
If they can do that then it doesn't give me any hope that we can live with the big boys in Europe.

Seriously do some people not want us to progress?

 

[scotty123]

Mourinho last night literally said come on City/Arsenal/rags/Liverpool it was too easy for us this season, are you going to give us a run for our money next season?
Do we really think Pellegrini has got that challenge in him? I don't

 

[blueinsa]

Mourinho last night literally said come on City/Arsenal/rags/Liverpool it was too easy for us this season, are you going to give us a run for our money next season?
Do we really think Pellegrini has got that challenge in him? I don't

Can you remember what he said last season?

 

[Damocles]

Okay what exactly do you mean with vision, identity and values? No management speak and just two or three sentences please.

A strategy with how to approach every situation holding a single idea in mind as important/non-negotiable.

What are Real Madrid's vision, identity and values? They're the biggest club on the planet and the club we ultimately want to
depose.

Real Madrid's identity is built on glamour and them being the biggest club in the world. The Galacticos was essentially the culmination of a value system that have held since the 50s. They will act as if they're the biggest club in the world and consistently buy the best players and best facilities. Real Madrid can never be second best in anything - this is the one fact that drives every decision that they make and why they've decided to break the transfer record on numerous occasions. If Messi didn't exist then there's a good argument that they would have waited on Ronaldo to not absorb such a monumental hit - Barcelona had a superstar so Real Madrid must. It's a club based on either envy or a commitment to greatness depending on how you frame it and this is on the mind of everybody when making decisions about who they should appoint as the cleaner to the manager they buy.

Their fans and global brand is based entirely on it.

For me all a club needs are: a good manager with a balanced system of play, good players, a good youth structure with decent scouts and coaches and plenty of cash, Ideally you also want a DoF / Football Administrator who is independent (but subservient to the manager) to prove continuity if the manager leaves. That's it.

I think the bit that I take issue with there is the term ALL it needs. Again we don't live in the world of the 1980s where a strong centre back and a cheeky winger could fire you to league success. We live in a world of corporatised and branded football clubs that compete with each on a global scale. Whilst getting it on the pitch is important obviously, it means nothing if you can't get it right off the pitch. You don't become the biggest club in the world based on a decent manager and scouting team, and that's what we're aiming at.

Soriano appears to know what he's doing making the cash albeit he's been helped by Tom Glick, owner friendly sponsors and
success on the field. Txiki and Pellegrini are the guys under fire for questionable purchases and a shite defence.

That doesn't make any sense. Every successful CEO is "helped" by good results and good staff. This is how they are judged.

Nobody at City will be thinking Txiki is doing anything but a decent job. Fans don't understand his job or don't provide proper context to him so blame him for things that aren't his fault; the people who do know his job tend to think he's doing well.

Glad to see you agree that Real, Barca and Bayern are nothing special and, if I understand your response to my second point
correctly, that cash trumps everything.

No you've got it wrong again. I didn't say that they weren't special, I said that they were just as special as United, Liverpool and Arsenal.

 

[cleavers]

Well I make it 2 games that we have "let slip" then, as its a fact that we won 4 of them.

In the league had we not "let slip" those 5 two nil leads, we'd actually have 2 points more than we have, so using them as the reason why we haven't won the title is a red herring, as in 4 of them, we kept going to win the games in the end, a good trait in my book. Games like Stoke and Arsenal at home, West Ham, United, Burnley, Liverpool, and Palace away (all lost), are the real reasons we didn't win it, and in all of those the players performances were generally not good enough.

There were others in cups of course, but I prefer not to paint a blacker than black picture.