Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2014/15 (continued)

[Wilf Wild 1937]

All I suggested is that they are higher up the food chain.



This isn't the 1970s or 80s; the average youth player costs the club £2m. A top class player is moving for £30m now and that will only go up.



Luckily there's no professional manager working today in football who doesn't understand the basic ideals of football theory so this hasn't come up.

Vision, identity and values are the difference between Barcelona and Zenit St Petersburg. In the modern football world you cannot afford to not afford values

Okay what exactly do you mean with vision, identity and values? No management speak and just two or three sentences please.
What are Real Madrid's vision, identity and values? They're the biggest club on the planet and the club we ultimately want to
depose.

For me all a club needs are: a good manager with a balanced system of play, good players, a good youth structure with decent scouts
and coaches and plenty of cash, Ideally you also want a DoF / Football Administrator who is independent (but subservient to the manager)
to prove continuity if the manager leaves. That's it.

Soriano appears to know what he's doing making the cash albeit he's been helped by Tom Glick, owner friendly sponsors and
success on the field. Txiki and Pellegrini are the guys under fire for questionable purchases and a shite defence.

Glad to see you agree that Real, Barca and Bayern are nothing special and, if I understand your response to my second point
correctly, that cash trumps everything.

They may be the biggest club on the planet, but all they do is fucking buy players and change managers every year. Having great managers and the best players doesn't always mean success on the pitch. Just going back last 10 years, Madrid won the La liga ONLY 3 times and Cl last year, hardly something to brag about. In Last 10 years they had 8-9 different managers ffs.

For your club wishes, we all have that already , it just will take time, which unfortunately most modern fans these days don't have time for.

We don't have a manager who believes in a balanced system of play.

The DoF is not subservient to the manager,

Real Madrid are the club we ultimately need to depose if we want to become number one.
They've been champions of Europe 10 times and have the largest revenues in the world.
They have remained successful at a time when their arch rivals have had their best ever team.

I don't think many posters on this forum can be called modern fans. I've been going since the 1960s and nobody expects world domination
overnight, over a season or over ten years. What some of us are pointing to is regression and not progression under Pellegrini. Real do
regularly change manager, as do Chelsea and there's nothing wrong with that if it brings results. Even Txiki talks about "a cycle".
We were right to sack Hughes when we did, if anything he should have gone earlier, and we were right when we sacked Mancini.
In my opinion (and plenty of others) the time is now right to dispense with Pellegrini. I like the guy and he's done well but he is now
a liability and not an asset. He has one year left on his contract: we either renew for another cycle or replace. Not doing either means
we have a lame duck next season.

 

[cleavers]

Well I make it 2 games that we have "let slip" then, as its a fact that we won 4 of them.

In the league had we not "let slip" those 5 two nil leads, we'd actually have 2 points more than we have, so using them as the reason why we haven't won the title is a red herring, as in 4 of them, we kept going to win the games in the end, a good trait in my book. Games like Stoke and Arsenal at home, West Ham, United, Burnley, Liverpool, and Palace away (all lost), are the real reasons we didn't win it, and in all of those the players performances were generally not good enough.

There were others in cups of course, but I prefer not to paint a blacker than black picture.

All about opinions but the main reason we didn't win the league is that we failed to beat Chelsea twice, despite outplaying them in both league games. If we had done that, the psychological difference would have been considerable.

Obviously that as well OB1, but my point was really about the myth that we're always giving 2-0 leads away, in the end it has cost us precisely 2 points in the league, because we went on to win 4 out 5 of those games, and in a number of other games we went 2-0 up, and simply won. The conclusion is that giving up 2-0 leads, whilst clearly a bit careless, doesn't matter if you still win.

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

Okay what exactly do you mean with vision, identity and values? No management speak and just two or three sentences please.

A strategy with how to approach every situation holding a single idea in mind as important/non-negotiable.

What are Real Madrid's vision, identity and values? They're the biggest club on the planet and the club we ultimately want to
depose.

Real Madrid's identity is built on glamour and them being the biggest club in the world. The Galacticos was essentially the culmination of a value system that have held since the 50s. They will act as if they're the biggest club in the world and consistently buy the best players and best facilities. Real Madrid can never be second best in anything - this is the one fact that drives every decision that they make and why they've decided to break the transfer record on numerous occasions. If Messi didn't exist then there's a good argument that they would have waited on Ronaldo to not absorb such a monumental hit - Barcelona had a superstar so Real Madrid must. It's a club based on either envy or a commitment to greatness depending on how you frame it and this is on the mind of everybody when making decisions about who they should appoint as the cleaner to the manager they buy.

Their fans and global brand is based entirely on it.

For me all a club needs are: a good manager with a balanced system of play, good players, a good youth structure with decent scouts and coaches and plenty of cash, Ideally you also want a DoF / Football Administrator who is independent (but subservient to the manager) to prove continuity if the manager leaves. That's it.

I think the bit that I take issue with there is the term ALL it needs. Again we don't live in the world of the 1980s where a strong centre back and a cheeky winger could fire you to league success. We live in a world of corporatised and branded football clubs that compete with each on a global scale. Whilst getting it on the pitch is important obviously, it means nothing if you can't get it right off the pitch. You don't become the biggest club in the world based on a decent manager and scouting team, and that's what we're aiming at.

Soriano appears to know what he's doing making the cash albeit he's been helped by Tom Glick, owner friendly sponsors and
success on the field. Txiki and Pellegrini are the guys under fire for questionable purchases and a shite defence.

That doesn't make any sense. Every successful CEO is "helped" by good results and good staff. This is how they are judged.

Nobody at City will be thinking Txiki is doing anything but a decent job. Fans don't understand his job or don't provide proper context to him so blame him for things that aren't his fault; the people who do know his job tend to think he's doing well.

Glad to see you agree that Real, Barca and Bayern are nothing special and, if I understand your response to my second point
correctly, that cash trumps everything.

No you've got it wrong again. I didn't say that they weren't special, I said that they were just as special as United, Liverpool and Arsenal.

Good points about Real Madrid.

I'm not knocking Soriano. I think he is doing a fine job. I'm merely pointing out he's operating under very favourable circumstances
especially in terms of sponsors. None of our sponsors are related parties (in case Platini or a tabloid journalist is reading this thread)
but many are Abu Dhabi based and want to be associated with "their" club.

Neither you nor I know what will be said at Txiki's appraisal.
I'm guessing it will be mixed. He's got the wage bill down and removed a lot of dross for decent money but his buys have been less successful.
But neither of us knows.

All football clubs are unique but none, including us, are special to anybody other than their own fans.

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

Well I make it 2 games that we have "let slip" then, as its a fact that we won 4 of them.

In the league had we not "let slip" those 5 two nil leads, we'd actually have 2 points more than we have, so using them as the reason why we haven't won the title is a red herring, as in 4 of them, we kept going to win the games in the end, a good trait in my book. Games like Stoke and Arsenal at home, West Ham, United, Burnley, Liverpool, and Palace away (all lost), are the real reasons we didn't win it, and in all of those the players performances were generally not good enough.

There were others in cups of course, but I prefer not to paint a blacker than black picture.

All about opinions but the main reason we didn't win the league is that we failed to beat Chelsea twice, despite outplaying them in both league games. If we had done that, the psychological difference would have been considerable.

Obviously that as well OB1, but my point was really about the myth that we're always giving 2-0 leads away, in the end it has cost us precisely 2 points in the league, because we went on to win 4 out 5 of those games, and in a number of other games we went 2-0 up, and simply won. The conclusion is that giving up 2-0 leads, whilst clearly a bit careless, doesn't matter if you still win.

It's not a myth though is it? It's happened 6 times including the CL. It may not have ultimately hurt us this season although the CSKA game
could have done but it shows that we can't put games to bed like we used to be able to do. This matters. If we want to progress as a
force in the CL we have to have this ability. People talk about "parking the bus", we can't park a moped.

 

[cleavers]

It's not a myth though is it? It's happened 6 times including the CL. It may not have ultimately hurt us this season although the CSKA game could have done but it shows that we can't put games to bed like we used to be able to do. This matters. If we want to progress as a
force in the CL we have to have this ability. People talk about "parking the bus", we can't park a moped.

Not if we WIN 4 out of the six, and have numerous others where we didn't even come close to giving away a 2-0 lead. Its about an attacking philosophy, and I will always prefer 3-2 or 4-2 having given a 2-0 lead away, to winning 1-0, but that's me.

The fact of it is 4 out of 6 games were won, and the aim of a football match is to win. In the other 2 we didn't lose. As I posted above, there were plenty of other games to pick to show your disappointment in performance.

Scoring more than the opposition is what football is all about, and of the 6 games we let a 2-0 lead slip, we did precisely that.

I bet you hated our final game in 2011/12, for me it was one of the greatest days of my life.

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

It's not a myth though is it? It's happened 6 times including the CL. It may not have ultimately hurt us this season although the CSKA game could have done but it shows that we can't put games to bed like we used to be able to do. This matters. If we want to progress as a
force in the CL we have to have this ability. People talk about "parking the bus", we can't park a moped.

Not if we WIN 4 out of the six, and have numerous others where we didn't even come close to giving away a 2-0 lead. Its about an attacking philosophy, and I will always prefer 3-2 or 4-2 having given a 2-0 lead away, to winning 1-0, but that's me.

The fact of it is 4 out of 6 games were won, and the aim of a football match is to win. In the other 2 we didn't lose. As I posted above, there were plenty of other games to pick to show your disappointment in performance.

Scoring more than the opposition is what football is all about, and of the 6 games we let a 2-0 lead slip, we did precisely that.

I bet you hated our final game in 2011/12, for me it was one of the greatest days of my life.

We weren't 2-0 in that game and yes for 93 minutes and 19 seconds I hated it as I'm sure you did.

I'm sure if we let a 2-0 lead slip against a really top side in a CL final we wouldn't turn it around, the momentum would be with
the opposition. We didn't put 6 games to bed at 2-0 this season. We had to start from scratch at 2-2 and try to win them a
second time. 4 times we did. In all cases it was unprofessional to put ourselves in that position. Shit happens occasionally
but 6 times?

I do take your point there have been plenty of other games where we've under performed and not got the result this season.
The first 3 months of 2015 being the worst period since Sparkless was the manager. The whole 2-0 thing is just one symptom
of a greater malaise. We've regressed this season. I can't believe how much interest I've got in the Arsenal v Sunderland match.
Why? Simple, I'm not confident we'll get a result against Southampton. In fact I'm never confident that we'll get a result against
anyone these days. Generally we do but after losing to Middlesborough, Newcastle's youth team and Burnley how can any of
us be confident about anything anymore? He has to go. Last season was great. Thanks for the memories but go.

 

[OB1]

We're second in the league with one game to and have just win five on the spin but you are not confident about us beating anyone. That's certainly a problem.

 

[eversince 76]

It's not a myth though is it? It's happened 6 times including the CL. It may not have ultimately hurt us this season although the CSKA game could have done but it shows that we can't put games to bed like we used to be able to do. This matters. If we want to progress as a
force in the CL we have to have this ability. People talk about "parking the bus", we can't park a moped.

Not if we WIN 4 out of the six, and have numerous others where we didn't even come close to giving away a 2-0 lead. Its about an attacking philosophy, and I will always prefer 3-2 or 4-2 having given a 2-0 lead away, to winning 1-0, but that's me.

The fact of it is 4 out of 6 games were won, and the aim of a football match is to win. In the other 2 we didn't lose. As I posted above, there were plenty of other games to pick to show your disappointment in performance.

Scoring more than the opposition is what football is all about, and of the 6 games we let a 2-0 lead slip, we did precisely that.

I bet you hated our final game in 2011/12, for me it was one of the greatest days of my life.

We weren't 2-0 in that game and yes for 93 minutes and 19 seconds I hated it as I'm sure you did.

I'm sure if we let a 2-0 lead slip against a really top side in a CL final we wouldn't turn it around, the momentum would be with
the opposition. We didn't put 6 games to bed at 2-0 this season. We had to start from scratch at 2-2 and try to win them a
second time. 4 times we did. In all cases it was unprofessional to put ourselves in that position. Shit happens occasionally
but 6 times?

I do take your point there have been plenty of other games where we've under performed and not got the result this season.
The first 3 months of 2015 being the worst period since Sparkless was the manager. The whole 2-0 thing is just one symptom
of a greater malaise. We've regressed this season. I can't believe how much interest I've got in the Arsenal v Sunderland match.
Why? Simple, I'm not confident we'll get a result against Southampton. In fact I'm never confident that we'll get a result against
anyone these days. Generally we do but after losing to Middlesborough, Newcastle's youth team and Burnley how can any of
us be confident about anything anymore? He has to go. Last season was great. Thanks for the memories but go.

As for winning by outscoring an opponent? Every day. The way we won the title last year easily beats Chelsea's performance, albeit they fully deserved to be champions this year and actually did play some nice attacking football.
For giving away 2-0 leads, people make too much an issue out of that. Like Cleavers says, it didn't cost us. And giving away 2-0 leads, or any lead for that matter, it's part of football especially when you want to play attacking and attractive football. You take a risk vs teams that play a more defensive style like Chelsea under Mourinho or like we often did under Mancini. I suppose it's another stat that certainly will be looked at over and over again by the managementteam. Same like the stat that we hardly seem to create anything from a corner or settpiece.
Not being confident is the life of a footballfan. There won't be many fans around who feels comfortable before a game starts, I myself have gained a lot of confidence over the last 5 years, but I never expect a guaranteed win or guaranteed silverware. And that is a good thing because a win taste so much nicer than when it's hardly a surprise or relieve anymore. Same with winningsilverware. Remember: it's about supporting your club, a win is just a bonus. And we do get a lot of bonusses lately don't we?

Finally the manager. If he is soleley judged on progression, yes maybe Pellegrini should be sacked. But that is not the case, nor was it the sole reason for Mancini to get his marching orders. What happened to give a manager time to build, to create a certain identity within the club. I'm not talking about Fergie or Wenger-likes, but what is 2 years? We changed managers for fun in the 80-90ies and it didn't took us anywhere. Khaldoon spoke about cycles, 3 or 4 years, depending on circumstances.
Pellegrini can be blamed, he's not perfect. Nor is Guardiola for that matter. But I expect the ones who judge him to look at all aspects: players missing due to injury or whatever reason, post WC-hangovers, FFP, difficult CL-draws, yes even playing teams at difficult moments (like when we played United when we were low on confidence and they were just the other way round, but look what happened since). It just wasn't our season, it happens. And yes, we had some shitgames as well. As we did when we won the title 11-12 and 13-14. Changing managers after two years or sooner is panicing short term policy imo. And if that happens, the ones who hired Pellegrini in the first place should be sacked as well. Obviously.
What I do want to see is Pellegrini staying on, maybe even get another year, and try and get in quality, not quantity. 2 or 3 players (Bale/Pogba/de Bruyne to name a trio) and 1 or 2 from the academy that are truly ready to compete for a season (Lopez, Denayer to name two).

No, what I want to see is our owner keep on building what he has been doing ever since he took over.

 

[inchy14]

Whats shit about it given it helped win him a league and cup double in his first season, last 16 of the CL twice and 2nd this?

Or is it shit because it doesn't suit your narrative that he is clueless and has been found out by everyone?

Nurse.

We limped into last sixteen and got tatted mainly due to his team selection. Beaten at home in both cups by shite. Our points total against the top 4 is poor and he is yet to beat mourinho in the league so in my opinion he is clueless. It took him 12 months to undo the best defence in the league and he won the league with no Ferguson at United which like it or not was massive.

"sniff sniff"

 

[blueinsa]

It's not a myth though is it? It's happened 6 times including the CL. It may not have ultimately hurt us this season although the CSKA game could have done but it shows that we can't put games to bed like we used to be able to do. This matters. If we want to progress as a
force in the CL we have to have this ability. People talk about "parking the bus", we can't park a moped.

Not if we WIN 4 out of the six, and have numerous others where we didn't even come close to giving away a 2-0 lead. Its about an attacking philosophy, and I will always prefer 3-2 or 4-2 having given a 2-0 lead away, to winning 1-0, but that's me.

The fact of it is 4 out of 6 games were won, and the aim of a football match is to win. In the other 2 we didn't lose. As I posted above, there were plenty of other games to pick to show your disappointment in performance.

Scoring more than the opposition is what football is all about, and of the 6 games we let a 2-0 lead slip, we did precisely that.

I bet you hated our final game in 2011/12, for me it was one of the greatest days of my life.

We weren't 2-0 in that game and yes for 93 minutes and 19 seconds I hated it as I'm sure you did.

I'm sure if we let a 2-0 lead slip against a really top side in a CL final we wouldn't turn it around, the momentum would be with
the opposition. We didn't put 6 games to bed at 2-0 this season. We had to start from scratch at 2-2 and try to win them a
second time. 4 times we did. In all cases it was unprofessional to put ourselves in that position. Shit happens occasionally
but 6 times?

I do take your point there have been plenty of other games where we've under performed and not got the result this season.
The first 3 months of 2015 being the worst period since Sparkless was the manager. The whole 2-0 thing is just one symptom
of a greater malaise. We've regressed this season. I can't believe how much interest I've got in the Arsenal v Sunderland match.
Why? Simple, I'm not confident we'll get a result against Southampton. In fact I'm never confident that we'll get a result against
anyone these days. Generally we do but after losing to Middlesborough, Newcastle's youth team and Burnley how can any of
us be confident about anything anymore? He has to go. Last season was great. Thanks for the memories but go.

Fuck-ing-hell pmsl.