Donald Trump

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I won't class people who voted for Trump as stupid, immoral, defective or evil, although some probably are, but no doubt some who voted for Clinton probably are too.

I will say that those people who don't exhibit one of the above characteristics, and did do their homework on the man, and voted for him anyway, did so under the principle that the ends justifies the means. Same applies to those who continue to support him now.

 

[roj]

I don't support Trump, why would I do such a thing?

I just know crap Me Too political arguments when I see them. When people base their whole logic on two axioms (that Trump is bad ergo everything he does should be viewed through that lens, and especially that opponents are not just different politically but also intellectually or morally inferior), they come to extremely bad conclusions and that's the holes where political intolerance, violence and extremism thrive. People are not cartoon characters and when they are simplified as such it destroys discourse.

I vote for Labour generally but that's not because the Tories are all rich nonces who hate the poor and are trying to give money to the rich. The Tories have some excellent policy ideas as has every Party from the Greens to the BNP. But for me, Labour's ideas on how to structure our society are more convincing.

Here's the thing, crap political discourse hurts EVERYBODY because everybody gets to vote. This is why education is important to me politically - we have a choice to live in a well educated society with informed and objective voters or we can live in an uneducated one and as somebody who uses that society and its resources then the first option sounds much better to me.

When people fall into that mindset that the Other party are not people who have different views on how we should organise society but instead are actively attempting to destroy it for some perceived gain, then we've become ignorant to the reality of political parties and started demonizing the enemy. Once you do that, you're locked into a colour and it's the end of any political critical thinking. And we need much of that at the moment, not much less.

Aye we all need to play the long game. Just we’re bloody selfish.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I don't support Trump, why would I do such a thing?

I just know crap Me Too political arguments when I see them. When people base their whole logic on two axioms (that Trump is bad ergo everything he does should be viewed through that lens, and especially that opponents are not just different politically but also intellectually or morally inferior), they come to extremely bad conclusions and that's the holes where political intolerance, violence and extremism thrive. People are not cartoon characters and when they are simplified as such it destroys discourse.

I vote for Labour generally but that's not because the Tories are all rich nonces who hate the poor and are trying to give money to the rich. The Tories have some excellent policy ideas as has every Party from the Greens to the BNP. But for me, Labour's ideas on how to structure our society are more convincing.

Here's the thing, crap political discourse hurts EVERYBODY because everybody gets to vote. This is why education is important to me politically - we have a choice to live in a well educated society with informed and objective voters or we can live in an uneducated one and as somebody who uses that society and its resources then the first option sounds much better to me.

When people fall into that mindset that the Other party are not people who have different views on how we should organise society but instead are actively attempting to destroy it for some perceived gain, then we've become ignorant to the reality of political parties and started demonizing the enemy. Once you do that, you're locked into a colour and it's the end of any political critical thinking. And we need much of that at the moment, not much less.

Societal interaction is built on trust. Personal relationships. Business relationships. Everything.

If fundamentally you do not believe you can trust someone, you can — and maybe SHOULD out of self-preservation — view “everything” that person does as bad. And I don’t think anyone can be criticized for holding that personal view of this guy.

That doesn’t mean outcomes, intended or not, of someone’s actions can’t be beneficial, so in that regard I agree with you.

But Trump has poisoned his own well for 25 plus years. The fact that so many drank the water anyway because they were just that thirsty truly saddens me. I have sympathy for many of them. But I still consider that a bad decision. On the other hand, if you take a mouthful of water so you can spit it at those you hate to hurt them, those can damn well be criticized, blamed and denigrated, and should be.

 

[Damocles]

I won't class people who voted for Trump as stupid, immoral, defective or evil, although some probably are, but no doubt some who voted for Clinton probably are too.

I will say that those people who don't exhibit one of the above characteristics, and did do their homework on the man, and voted for him anyway, did so under the principle that the ends justifies the means. Same applies to those who continue to support him now.

I don't have a problem with that opinion. Every politician that anybody votes for is ultimately about how the ends justify the means. Having a politician share your complete policy position on every issue is an unrealistic idea. So we all weigh up the pros against the cons when deciding to cast a vote.

You're suggesting that people voted rationally, were informed in doing so, wanted the best for themselves and their country, and you heavily disagreed with their conclusions. That's great. When you consider opposition voters as rational and moral people by and large who are open to dialogue then you automatically acknowledge their agency but also there's the inherent idea that these people could be convinced to vote for you. That's how this should all work in my opinion.

 

[Vic]

But that IS elitism!

You're saying almost the exact same thing as Trump. He's pointing at a big group of people and saying "these lot are not like us, they're defective morally", whereas you're doing the exact same thing but saying they lack the intelligence of, by implication, people like you because they voted another way.

I cannot believe that I'm having to actually sit and argue that 60 odd million oeople aren't stupid or immoral because of how they cast a ballot. The world's gone absolutely mad.

Can't resist. All those nice people that voted for Hitler were not all stupid or immoral.

I don't support Trump, why would I do such a thing?

I just know crap Me Too political arguments when I see them. When people base their whole logic on two axioms (that Trump is bad ergo everything he does should be viewed through that lens, and especially that opponents are not just different politically but also intellectually or morally inferior), they come to extremely bad conclusions and that's the holes where political intolerance, violence and extremism thrive. People are not cartoon characters and when they are simplified as such it destroys discourse.

I vote for Labour generally but that's not because the Tories are all rich nonces who hate the poor and are trying to give money to the rich. The Tories have some excellent policy ideas as has every Party from the Greens to the BNP. But for me, Labour's ideas on how to structure our society are more convincing.

Here's the thing, crap political discourse hurts EVERYBODY because everybody gets to vote. This is why education is important to me politically - we have a choice to live in a well educated society with informed and objective voters or we can live in an uneducated one and as somebody who uses that society and its resources then the first option sounds much better to me.

When people fall into that mindset that the Other party are not people who have different views on how we should organise society but instead are actively attempting to destroy it for some perceived gain, then we've become ignorant to the reality of political parties and started demonizing the enemy. Once you do that, you're locked into a colour and it's the end of any political critical thinking. And we need much of that at the moment, not much less.

"This is why education is important to me politically - we have a choice to live in a well educated society with informed and objective voters or we can live in an uneducated one and as somebody who uses that society and its resources then the first option sounds much better to me."

But that IS elitism!

I think.

 

[roj]

Societal interaction is built on trust. Personal relationships. Business relationships. Everything.

If fundamentally you do not believe you can trust someone, you can — and maybe SHOULD out of self-preservation — view “everything” that person does as bad. And I don’t think anyone can be criticized for holding that personal view of this guy.

That doesn’t mean outcomes, intended or not, of someone’s actions can’t be beneficial, so in that regard I agree with you.

But Trump has poisoned his own well for 25 plus years. The fact that so many drank the water anyway because they were just that thirsty truly saddens me. I have sympathy for many of them. But I still consider that a bad decision. On the other hand, if you take a mouthful of water so you can spit it at those you hate to hurt them, those can damn well be criticized, blamed and denigrated, and should be.

Get in touch with Andrew Lloyd Webber.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Get in touch with Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Well, I detested (to the point of being physically ill) Phantom of the Opera, but otherwise I don’t understand that reference.

Unless you’re implying that Trump is misunderstood. Folks without platforms and pulpits and voices are misunderstood. Those with the largest on planet Earth aren’t.

 

[roj]

Tbh Les Mis is my favourite. Just went more mainstream for the joke. Poetic last coulple of sentences is all.

 

[aguero93:20]

I don't support Trump, why would I do such a thing?

I just know crap Me Too political arguments when I see them. When people base their whole logic on two axioms (that Trump is bad ergo everything he does should be viewed through that lens, and especially that opponents are not just different politically but also intellectually or morally inferior), they come to extremely bad conclusions and that's the holes where political intolerance, violence and extremism thrive. People are not cartoon characters and when they are simplified as such it destroys discourse.

I vote for Labour generally but that's not because the Tories are all rich nonces who hate the poor and are trying to give money to the rich. The Tories have some excellent policy ideas as has every Party from the Greens to the BNP. But for me, Labour's ideas on how to structure our society are more convincing.

Here's the thing, crap political discourse hurts EVERYBODY because everybody gets to vote. This is why education is important to me politically - we have a choice to live in a well educated society with informed and objective voters or we can live in an uneducated one and as somebody who uses that society and its resources then the first option sounds much better to me.

When people fall into that mindset that the Other party are not people who have different views on how we should organise society but instead are actively attempting to destroy it for some perceived gain, then we've become ignorant to the reality of political parties and started demonizing the enemy. Once you do that, you're locked into a colour and it's the end of any political critical thinking. And we need much of that at the moment, not much less.

So, you're just playing Devil's advocate then and going for the man instead of the ball?

 

[arfurclue]

I don't support Trump, why would I do such a thing?

I just know crap Me Too political arguments when I see them. When people base their whole logic on two axioms (that Trump is bad ergo everything he does should be viewed through that lens, and especially that opponents are not just different politically but also intellectually or morally inferior), they come to extremely bad conclusions and that's the holes where political intolerance, violence and extremism thrive. People are not cartoon characters and when they are simplified as such it destroys discourse.

I vote for Labour generally but that's not because the Tories are all rich nonces who hate the poor and are trying to give money to the rich. The Tories have some excellent policy ideas as has every Party from the Greens to the BNP. But for me, Labour's ideas on how to structure our society are more convincing.

Here's the thing, crap political discourse hurts EVERYBODY because everybody gets to vote. This is why education is important to me politically - we have a choice to live in a well educated society with informed and objective voters or we can live in an uneducated one and as somebody who uses that society and its resources then the first option sounds much better to me.

When people fall into that mindset that the Other party are not people who have different views on how we should organise society but instead are actively attempting to destroy it for some perceived gain, then we've become ignorant to the reality of political parties and started demonizing the enemy. Once you do that, you're locked into a colour and it's the end of any political critical thinking. And we need much of that at the moment, not much less.

Yet isn't this the crux of the matter - that the way Trump 'teaches' will not lead to true freedom from demonisation for him or anyone else. And if one subscribes to the argument that the greatest intelligence and beauty humanity can know, is that which is but a step beyond 'demons' - call this 'angelic' if you will - well...isn't buying into Trump's spiel actually doing him a disservice also?