Donald Trump

BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
With respect, this view is extremely reductionist.

Yes, "own the libs" is an important factor. But one needs to explore the topic in much more detail to understand why Trump is so popular.

Why do Republicans want to "own the libs"? - for starters.

There is at least one recent Amanpour video that explores this very topic. And a book (What's the Matter With Kansas by Thomas Frank - somewhat dated, published in 2004) that I have not had time to read but would like to. And these resources of course only begin to scratch the surface.

As a person whose father grew up in rural Missouri, I have my own views - which are somewhat different than those of Sarah Smarsh's - the author interviewed in Amanpour and are more in line with the synopsis of Frank's work I read.

This topic is so complex that I cannot possibly do it justice in a single post - both for lack of space and because, frankly, I have not studied the topic in depth.

I conclude with this: the surge in populism which American is now experiencing is far from unique. The exact thing is happening in numerous democratic countries across the world. That populism is on the rise world-wide is not a coincidence, and, has little to do with "owning the libs" - or the geographically-adjusted equivalent.
Click to expand...
The surge in social media and the stark and detailed awareness the those with access to it have of the "success" of others is a common theme, as is the resentment bred, as is the desire to turn to demagogues to solve these inequalities. In America is manifests as "own the libs"; in other nations, its a different target but it stems from awareness of "inequality" or relative standing.

I think your personal stories underscore my point. How would you like to bust your ass for 70 hours a week, only to see some little shit like Mark Zuckerberg become a many times over billionaire for fooling around on a computer? Its Dire Straits' "Money For Nothing" video writ larger and starker and brought directly to your doorstep, time after time, every hour of every day.
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
But the surge in social media and the stark and detailed awareness the those with access to it have of the "success" of others is a common theme, as is the resentment bred, as is the desire to turn to demagogues to solve these inequalities. In America is manifests as "own the libs"; in other nations, its a different target but it stems from awareness of "inequality" or relative standing.
Click to expand...
Cheers - I'll not argue with you friend. Instead, let's you and I both begin by reading Frank's, "What's Wrong With Kansas" - I've wanted to read this book but haven't had time to.

Once we've both read "Kansas" - should you - or indeed I - have changed our mind (or not) - repost.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Cheers - I'll not argue with you friend. Instead, let's you and I both begin by reading Frank's, "What's Wrong With Kansas" - I've wanted to read this book but haven't had time to.

Once we've both read "Kansas" - should you - or indeed I - have changed our mind (or not) - repost.
Click to expand...
I don't think we aren't agreeing. I'm just simplifying it because even with the values differential you describe, that doesn't get you all the way to why there'd be a mass cult movement towards Trump or other demagogues like him. It helps explain Reagan, though -- and there is an element of national pride and toughness lacking in the late 70s that he brought back too -- plus we had Paul Volcker who squeezed the economy so hard via rate increases he wrung inflation out of it in a hurry.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
What (Some) Rural Conservatives May Believe - Based On Personal Experience

Skip this post - if you dislike speculative commentary - which might well fail to apply in general. This post is based on my own, personal, childhood experience.

To set the stage, my father grew up in rural Missouri, pre-depression. Born in 1928. This post is mostly about my father, and the inferences I draw about what some rural Americans may believe... but in full fairness, my mother's upbringing and origin of birth also impacts my view.

My mother was born in Guam. Also in 1928. She experienced the brutality of WWII first hand. Her father was a drunkard who died early. Her mother was temperamentally-challenged - often subject to near hysteria, often yelling at the slightest provocation. My mother eventually became similar.

WIth that out of the way...
So what do I think that rural conservatives may believe, based on my upbringing?... I offer a few anecdotes with regard to my father... and then I summarize.

Episode One:
===========
I think it's early Christmas. As usual in my early years - I'm 4 or 5 at this time - we drove from Albuquerque, NM, where my father worked as a PHd mathematician for Sandia - to my Grandfather's farm, in - well - the middle of nowhere - somewhat near Everton, MO.

It's a fun time for me - at one time, we hike out into the woods on Grandfather's farm to cut down a Christmas tree.

And yet there's an undercurrent of... something wrong. I don't remember all the details... but at some point there's a gathering in Grandfather's house. I'm in a side-room with my mother, who is distraught. She tells me that my Grandfather is prejudiced. When I ask Mom, what "prejudiced" means - she says that Grandfather doesn't like her.

Episode Two:
===========
I'm now 14-or-so. My cousins and I are on Grandfather's farm - perhaps I should call it Grandmother's farm as Grandfather passed away about 7 years ago...

So let me restart.

My cousins and I are on Grandmother's farm. My uncle and aunt drove to Missouri on summer vacation along with their 4 children. My mother and aunt are best friends, and everything is wonderful.

My father, though, is upset my uncle. Each year our family visits Grandmother's farm, father pitches in. Our farm derives its livelihood from raising cattle, feeding them on the grains grown on our acreage.

My father has learnt from his father the ethic of hard work. Of what it means to be a man: a man must pitch in; a man must not rely on others except in need; a man must earn his keep.

Because of father's ethic, he runs into conflict with my uncle, who is simply at the farm at his wife's behest. Father confronts uncle and makes clear that this is no picnic... and that my uncle must earn his way.

Next day, my uncle is out with my father driving tractors, bailers, and combiners... and using a pitchfork to lift 50 lb hay bales to pitch them up to my father in our barn. I too pitch in - but due to my youth I'm not helping much.

The following day, my uncle is in complete agony - in bed - unable to move. It turns out that my uncle had a back condition - which all the hard work of the previous day - flared up. My father feels bad about this.

Episode Three:
============
I'm now 15-or-so. My family drives to Missouri to visit Grandmother. As usual, this is on a Greyhound bus. It takes roughly 3 days - and - supposedly - is less expensive than driving to Missouri in a car - or - than flying to Missouri and then renting a car. The trip - as usual - is fucking awful.

We eventually arrive in Missouri, having rented a car and then driving from the bus depot to my Grandmother's farm.

When we arrive, I immediately set out to the basement of my Grandmother's house. It's got a pool table (I'm not much into pool), but also a ping-pong table: and I love playing ping-pong.

So my little brother - he's a year or so younger than I am - begin playing ping-pong.

Roughly 5 minutes later - my father storms into the basement. He's livid. He takes off his belt, runs at me, and proceeds to whip me 2 or 3 times across the buttocks. He's upset that my brother and I did not recognize the farm work ethic - in his mind, we were on Grandmother's farm to pitch in... and play was only to be contemplated once chores were done.

I - of course - was fucking pissed off at this - and seriously contemplated running away.

Grandmother was mortified... later, Father calmed down... and was, in fact, very sorry, for his actions.

Episode Four:
===========
Years, and years later. My father has died and so has my mother. I'm now 46 years old. Among my father's belongings, I find a diary kept by my Grandmother...

In one of the entries, she confesses her like for Grandfather - she attended the same grade school as he. In the diary she reveals that Grandfather is very smart - which she likes - but that he intentionally hides his intelligence - to fit in among his peers.
===
So... my takeaways as to what some rural conservatives may believe...

From Episode One:
Rural Americans are prejudiced against others that do not look like them. Even those who are far more open-minded on this issue than others (e.g., my father who married a person from Guam) are prejudiced even if they don't realize this.

From Episode Two:
Self-reliance and work ethic are very strong. Anyone not obviously pitching in is disdained. The undercurrent of not trusting government to help partially stems from this.

Rural Americans don't see a need for big government. Indeed... I think I remember my father saying something along the lines that the only reasons for government are to protect against foreign invasion and to deliver the mail.

From Episode Three:
Rural American's hold some of their values in extremis. Fall short of their beliefs, and you might well face attempted physical punishment.

From Episode Four:
Book-smart intelligence is disliked. Better to hide ones intelligence than to be caught out as a smarty-pants.

There's a built-in distrust of anyone claiming to know better than I about any topic whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Interesting post. Lasted a full poo.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
What (Some) Rural Conservatives May Believe - Based On Personal Experience

Skip this post - if you dislike speculative commentary - which might well fail to apply in general. This post is based on my own, personal, childhood experience.

To set the stage, my father grew up in rural Missouri, pre-depression. Born in 1928. This post is mostly about my father, and the inferences I draw about what some rural Americans may believe... but in full fairness, my mother's upbringing and origin of birth also impacts my view.

My mother was born in Guam. Also in 1928. She experienced the brutality of WWII first hand. Her father was a drunkard who died early. Her mother was temperamentally-challenged - often subject to near hysteria, often yelling at the slightest provocation. My mother eventually became similar.

WIth that out of the way...
Episode One:
===========
It's late December - Christmas time. As usual, in my early years - I'm 4 or 5 at this time - we drive from Albuquerque, New Mexico, where my father works as a PHd mathematician for Sandia - to my Grandfather's farm, in - well - the middle of nowhere - somewhat near Everton, Missouri.

It's a fun time for me. One day, my Grandfather, Father and I hike out into the woods on the edge of the farm to cut down a Christmas tree.

And yet, an undercurrent of... something wrong pervades. I don't remember all the details... but, at some point, there's a gathering in Grandfather's house. I'm in a side-room with my Mother, who is distraught. She tells me that Grandfather is prejudiced. When I ask Mom, what "prejudiced" means - she says that Grandfather doesn't like her.

Episode Two:
===========
I'm now 14-or-so. My cousins and I are on Grandfather's farm - or, perhaps I should say, Grandmother's farm as Grandfather passed away about 7 years ago...

So let me restart...

My cousins and I are on Grandmother's farm. My Uncle and Aunt drove to Missouri on summer vacation along with their 4 children. My Mother and Aunt are best friends, and everything is wonderful.

My Father, though, is upset with Uncle. Each year our family visits Grandmother's farm, and Father pitches in. Our farm derives its livelihood from raising cattle, feeding them on hay grown on our acreage.

My Father has learnt from his Father the ethic of hard work. Of what it means to be a man: a man must pitch in; a man must not rely on others except in need; a man must earn his keep.

Because of Father's ethic, he runs into conflict with Uncle, who is simply at the farm at his wife's behest. Father confronts Uncle and makes clear that this is no picnic... and that Uncle must earn his way.

Next day, Uncle is out with Father driving tractors, bailers, and combiners... using a pitchfork to lift 50 lb hay bales to pitch them up to Father in our barn. I too pitch in - but due to my youth I'm not helping much.

The following day, Uncle is in complete agony - in bed - unable to move. It turns out that Uncle had a back condition - which all the hard work of the previous day - flared up. Father feels bad about this.

Episode Three:
============
I'm now 15-or-so. My family drives to Missouri to visit Grandmother. As usual, this is on a Greyhound bus. It takes roughly 3 days (we now live in Livermore, CA - my father still works for Sandia - we moved to Sandia-Livermore when I was a bit short of 6). Supposedly taking Greyhound is less expensive than driving to Missouri in a car - or - than flying to Missouri and then renting a car. The trip - as usual - is fucking awful.

We eventually arrive at Grandmother's, having rented a car near the bus depot and then driving to the farm.

When we arrive, I immediately set out to the basement. It's got a pool table (I'm not much into pool) - but also a ping-pong table: and I love playing ping-pong.

My little brother - he's a year or so younger than I am - begin playing ping-pong.

Roughly 5 minutes later - Father storms into the basement. He's livid. He takes off his belt, runs at me, and proceeds to whip me 2 or 3 times across the buttocks. He's upset that Brother and I did not recognize the farm work ethic - in his mind, we were on Grandmother's farm to pitch in... and play was only to be contemplated once chores were done.

I - of course - was fucking pissed off at this - and seriously contemplated running away.

Grandmother was mortified... later, Father calmed down... and was, in fact, very sorry, for his actions.

Episode Four:
===========
Years, and years later. Father has died and so has Mother. I'm now 46 years old. Among Father's belongings, I find a diary kept by Grandmother...

In one of the entries, she confesses her like for Grandfather - she attended the same grade school as he. In the diary she reveals that Grandfather is very smart - which she likes - but that he intentionally hides his intelligence - to fit in among his peers.
===
Takeaways as to what some rural conservatives may believe...

From Episode One:
Rural Americans are prejudiced against others that do not look like them. Even those who are far more open-minded on this issue than others (e.g., my father who married an asian-looking woman from the pacific island of Guam) are prejudiced even if they don't realize this.

From Episode Two:
Self-reliance and work ethic are very strong. Anyone not obviously pitching in is disdained. The undercurrent of not trusting government partially stems from this.

Rural Americans don't see a need for big government. Indeed... I remember Father saying something along the lines that there are only two legitimate reasons for government, namely: 1) to protect against foreign invasion, and; 2) to deliver the mail.

From Episode Three:
Rural American's hold some of their values in extremis. Fall short of their beliefs, and you might well face attempted physical punishment.

From Episode Four:
Book-smart intelligence is disliked. Better to hide ones intelligence than to be caught out as a smarty-pants.

There's a built-in distrust of anyone claiming to know better about any topic whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Typical family life, much less dysfunctional than my own: Father extreme right wing Christian, Mason, physically and psychologically cruel to me, tho not my bro. According to him I was completely useless. His life’s ambition was to undermine everybody else’s confidence and self worth. Mother an alcoholic ex actress. And I mean raving drunk all the time and screaming hysterically.
Jeeze, what a laugh. I recovered somewhat by the age of 40.
 
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“Both sides are the same.”

Trump says he doesn’t ‘mind’ if someone has to ‘shoot through’ the media​

The remark came days after Trump suggested Liz Cheney should “face nine barrels shooting at her.”

LITITZ, Pennsylvania — Donald Trump said Sunday that he wouldn’t “mind” if someone had to “shoot through the fake news” to get to him, a further escalation of his violent rhetoric.

The former president, speaking at a rally here about the efforts the Secret Service has taken to protect him after two apparent assassination attempts against him, began pointing out the panes of ballistic glass surrounding him at the outdoor venue.

“All we really have over here is the fake news, right? And to get me somebody would have to shoot through the fake news,” Trump said. “And I don’t mind that so much.”

The comment, which drew laughter from the crowd, was one of several broadsides Trump launched against the press in his rally here. He has long used the media as a foil in his appeals to his base.

 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
What (Some) Rural Conservatives May Believe - Based On Personal Experience

Skip this post - if you dislike speculative commentary - which might well fail to apply in general. This post is based on my own, personal, childhood experience.

To set the stage, my father grew up in rural Missouri, pre-depression. Born in 1928. This post is mostly about my father, and the inferences I draw about what some rural Americans may believe... but in full fairness, my mother's upbringing and origin of birth also impacts my view.

My mother was born in Guam. Also in 1928. She experienced the brutality of WWII first hand. Her father was a drunkard who died early. Her mother was temperamentally-challenged - often subject to near hysteria, often yelling at the slightest provocation. My mother eventually became similar.

WIth that out of the way...
Episode One:
===========
It's late December - Christmas time. As usual, in my early years - I'm 4 or 5 at this time - we drive from Albuquerque, New Mexico, where my father works as a PHd mathematician for Sandia - to my Grandfather's farm, in - well - the middle of nowhere - somewhat near Everton, Missouri.

It's a fun time for me. One day, my Grandfather, Father and I hike out into the woods on the edge of the farm to cut down a Christmas tree.

And yet, an undercurrent of... something wrong pervades. I don't remember all the details... but, at some point, there's a gathering in Grandfather's house. I'm in a side-room with my Mother, who is distraught. She tells me that Grandfather is prejudiced. When I ask Mom, what "prejudiced" means - she says that Grandfather doesn't like her.

Episode Two:
===========
I'm now 14-or-so. My cousins and I are on Grandfather's farm - or, perhaps I should say, Grandmother's farm as Grandfather passed away about 7 years ago...

So let me restart...

My cousins and I are on Grandmother's farm. My Uncle and Aunt drove to Missouri on summer vacation along with their 4 children. My Mother and Aunt are best friends, and everything is wonderful.

My Father, though, is upset with Uncle. Each year our family visits Grandmother's farm, and Father pitches in. Our farm derives its livelihood from raising cattle, feeding them on hay grown on our acreage.

My Father has learnt from his Father the ethic of hard work. Of what it means to be a man: a man must pitch in; a man must not rely on others except in need; a man must earn his keep.

Because of Father's ethic, he runs into conflict with Uncle, who is simply at the farm at his wife's behest. Father confronts Uncle and makes clear that this is no picnic... and that Uncle must earn his way.

Next day, Uncle is out with Father driving tractors, bailers, and combiners... using a pitchfork to lift 50 lb hay bales to pitch them up to Father in our barn. I too pitch in - but due to my youth I'm not helping much.

The following day, Uncle is in complete agony - in bed - unable to move. It turns out that Uncle had a back condition - which all the hard work of the previous day - flared up. Father feels bad about this.

Episode Three:
============
I'm now 15-or-so. My family drives to Missouri to visit Grandmother. As usual, this is on a Greyhound bus. It takes roughly 3 days (we now live in Livermore, CA - my father still works for Sandia - we moved to Sandia-Livermore when I was a bit short of 6). Supposedly taking Greyhound is less expensive than driving to Missouri in a car - or - than flying to Missouri and then renting a car. The trip - as usual - is fucking awful.

We eventually arrive at Grandmother's, having rented a car near the bus depot and then driving to the farm.

When we arrive, I immediately set out to the basement. It's got a pool table (I'm not much into pool) - but also a ping-pong table: and I love playing ping-pong.

My little brother - he's a year or so younger than I am - begin playing ping-pong.

Roughly 5 minutes later - Father storms into the basement. He's livid. He takes off his belt, runs at me, and proceeds to whip me 2 or 3 times across the buttocks. He's upset that Brother and I did not recognize the farm work ethic - in his mind, we were on Grandmother's farm to pitch in... and play was only to be contemplated once chores were done.

I - of course - was fucking pissed off at this - and seriously contemplated running away.

Grandmother was mortified... later, Father calmed down... and was, in fact, very sorry, for his actions.

Episode Four:
===========
Years, and years later. Father has died and so has Mother. I'm now 46 years old. Among Father's belongings, I find a diary kept by Grandmother...

In one of the entries, she confesses her like for Grandfather - she attended the same grade school as he. In the diary she reveals that Grandfather is very smart - which she likes - but that he intentionally hides his intelligence - to fit in among his peers.
===
Takeaways as to what some rural conservatives may believe...

From Episode One:
Rural Americans are prejudiced against others that do not look like them. Even those who are far more open-minded on this issue than others (e.g., my father who married an asian-looking woman from the pacific island of Guam) are prejudiced even if they don't realize this.

From Episode Two:
Self-reliance and work ethic are very strong. Anyone not obviously pitching in is disdained. The undercurrent of not trusting government partially stems from this.

Rural Americans don't see a need for big government. Indeed... I remember Father saying something along the lines that there are only two legitimate reasons for government, namely: 1) to protect against foreign invasion, and; 2) to deliver the mail.

From Episode Three:
Rural American's hold some of their values in extremis. Fall short of their beliefs, and you might well face attempted physical punishment.

From Episode Four:
Book-smart intelligence is disliked. Better to hide ones intelligence than to be caught out as a smarty-pants.

There's a built-in distrust of anyone claiming to know better about any topic whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that insight.

But "Book-smart intelligence is disliked. Better to hide ones intelligence than to be caught out as a smarty-pants" doesn't explain why they'd vote for Vance (or for Trump pretending to be smart).
 
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