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The perfect fumble said:
Damocles said:
The perfect fumble said:
I have no need, I know it to be true. Look at it this way, just to amuse myself I bashed in to Google search executive pay, chose the UK and all articles from the last 12 months, and up popped page after page of Vince Cable babbling on about exorbitant pay, unjustified bonus payments, shareholder revolts and statistics showing of how over the last few decades executive pay has ballooned both in absolute terms and in comparison to average earnings, it's is as plain as the nose on your face.

Put another way, if I say Agüero is paid more, by any standards of measurement, than Paul Lake ever was, is there a question mark over that because I don't post an external link? No, because it is self evidently true.

You don't seem to be taking this onboard.

This isn't self evident. You know this because your self was challenged to show evidence and is seemingly unwilling or unable.

You are right, i'm unwilling, there can be no debate if a statement as obvious as...

Executive pay has outstripped average wages and inflation

Is in dispute.

There is a debate about whether this is a good thing or bad thing, but not about its veracity


No no, you posted "Executive pay has outstripped not only average wages and inflation but even share value and profit. Put simply executives are awarding themselves increases that bear no relationship to performance",

Now as this is my field, so to speak, I asked:

i) Have any sources that executive pay has outstripped all of these?
ii) And over which time scale?

I ask that as equities, and therefore share value and profit, are up over 48% between October 08 and today, so I was surprised to learn than mean executive pay had risen so much.

That is why I asked for your source and/or a link and for a timescale of your choosing.

You have since been unable to provide that as you have no doubt read the odd article about what the left wing press would deem obscene executive pay and somehow managed to extrapolate that across the board to suit your world view.

It's been mentioned to you by half a dozen posters that you appear to be unable to carry on any sort of legitimate adult debate and instead throw your toys out of your pram and claim I got in a tiz simply because you don't understand the process involved with debating points.

That's your look out son, not anyone else's.
 
worsleyweb said:
Damocles said:
law74 said:
Not 100% sure be near certain that the care component of DLA is not that significant but the mobility aspect is.
A car can also be provided to an able bodies person if they are the parent guardian or i think the main carer of a disabled person that meets the criteria with the dexuctions taken from the disabled pedsonz benefit amount

DLA is being phased out to be replaced with PIP now. The care component is about £81 a week where mobility is £56 a week but goes straight to Motability.

What you're talking about in terms of the carer is true. The disabled person is entitled to the car and if unable to drive themselves, can nominate up to two people in a specific radius from their house who can drive it and be covered by their insurance. Usually its their carers.

My point though is that the person is able to drive it because they are nominated by the disabled person who pays for it. The point is so that the disabled person can still have the ability to live their lives out as they normally would without having to suffer through a not fit-for-purpose system of public transport.

Makes a big difference really. Taxi from Mum's house to the local infirmary is about £8 one way and to the main hospital with most of the equipment is about £30 one way. Added in Church which is £4 either way and the town centre which is £5 either way and it adds up a lot. The car is a bit of a Godsend to be honest as she can visit her sisters in Warrington or enjoy a day in the Sun whenever she feels like it. The big thing that these cars do if driven by the full time carer is give her the ability to do things without planning them out days in advance with me or my sister. In turn, we get to work more too and know that she's still living a full life rather than sat cooped up in a terraced house unable to see or go out anywhere.

Great news for your mum. Do you accept that the system may have been abused somewhat?

I think everyone recognises that some people abuse the system in the same manner some people abuse duty free allowances, taxation and just about any other system they can.
but instead of scapping something that give great benefit to those that are justified in having it, as others have said,report those abusing it.
there are people paid (not a lot tbh) to investigate allegations of fraud.
 
blue cigar said:
I tell you what,some people on here really really like to drone on with this "look at me" drivel. Fukin test that.
Seeing as you added nothing, there's an element of irony in that post.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Paul Lake's Left Knee said:
The perfect fumble said:
Of course I have an argument to destroy, this is the original post....

I suspect you like me are on PAYE, maybe with a small bonus element maybe not, so we couldn't abuse the system even if we wanted to. Executive pay has outstripped not only average wages and inflation but even share value and profit. Put simply executives are awarding themselves increases that bear no relationship to performance. Even when performance is related to increased shareholder value this all too often leads to short termism that temporarily boosts the share value, which is then cashed in to the long lasting damage of the company and wider shareholders (not to mention stakeholders like employees).

Legislation to prevent this abuse of the system not only makes economic sense it would be welcomed by many share holders who see executives ripping off companies at their expense.


Your opinion of it, its lack of external links the varacity of my argument, you might consider it nonsense, fine, have at it, but do have at it


Take this one point.....

Executive pay has outstripped average wages and inflation

I have have loads of links to back this up, so why do I not post them? Simple, just as I believe inequality has increased in this country and food bank use has risen in this country, how suicides have increased and the productivity gap is still terrible compared to our competitors, I believe these things to be what my late dad used to call the "bleedin obvious" and these points are not debating points, they're givens, they're lauch pads for discussion.

Right wingers seem to love disputing the "bleedin obvious" Why? Because it stiffles debate, they muddy the waters by refusing to accept there is even a topic to talk about, so we don't address excessive executive pay because, despite all the moutains of evidence, they dispute a problem exists, or if they do, they set up a Commision to look at the evidence (not the problem mind) and they'll get back to us in five years, or never.

Left wingers are tired of having to justify the bleedin obvious, if SWP cries foul then fine but it's not because he doesn't have a point to answer, it is because he can't.

I am not right wing, never have been, if fact i am voting green at the next election, the closest thing to a socialist party that is listed in the polls. You are failing to back up your opinion, time and time again, this is adding nothing to the debate, as it is just that at the moment, an opinion, we all have one of those, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's no matter how much you insist its bleedin obvious. Surely if you have the mentioned links already then it would be a lot simpler to post them up, than typing what you just have. The fact is you wont as you think it is somehow clever or bleedin obvious, it isnt, its actually devaluing your point now. Do us all a favour and post your evidence, as your opinion might have some semblance of a fact then. I want and encourage you to do this as someone who thinks you are probably correct.

In the spirit of one City fan to another....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...TSE-100-firms-on-excessive-executive-pay.html

Vince Cable warns FTSE 100 firms on 'excessive' executive pay

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31686622

Seven-figure salaries damage UK firms' reputation, poll suggests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16458570

Cameron promises powers to limit executives' pay

http://highpaycentre.org/blog/exces...at-to-business-say-institute-of-directors-mem

Excessive executive pay a threat to business, say Institute of Directors members

http://highpaycentre.org/blog/excessive-executive-pay-is-damaging-the-reputation-of-business

Excessive executive pay is damaging the reputation of business

http://www.uk200group.co.uk/Media/PressComment_26035.aspx

News that excessive executive pay is damaging UK business

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...h-business-say-business-leaders-10080832.html

Excessive executive pay threatens British business, say business leaders

Good man, thats something to chew on now. In my opinion ;-p you've added a lot more weight to your argument.
 
SWP's back said:
The perfect fumble said:
Damocles said:
You don't seem to be taking this onboard.

This isn't self evident. You know this because your self was challenged to show evidence and is seemingly unwilling or unable.

You are right, i'm unwilling, there can be no debate if a statement as obvious as...

Executive pay has outstripped average wages and inflation

Is in dispute.

There is a debate about whether this is a good thing or bad thing, but not about its veracity


No no, you posted "Executive pay has outstripped not only average wages and inflation but even share value and profit. Put simply executives are awarding themselves increases that bear no relationship to performance",

Now as this is my field, so to speak, I asked:

i) Have any sources that executive pay has outstripped all of these?
ii) And over which time scale?

I ask that as equities, and therefore share value and profit, are up over 48% between October 08 and today, so I was surprised to learn than mean executive pay had risen so much.

That is why I asked for your source and/or a link and for a timescale of your choosing.

You have since been unable to provide that as you have no doubt read the odd article about what the left wing press would deem obscene executive pay and somehow managed to extrapolate that across the board to suit your world view.

It's been mentioned to you by half a dozen posters that you appear to be unable to carry on any sort of legitimate adult debate and instead throw your toys out of your pram and claim I got in a tiz simply because you don't understand the process involved with debating points.

That's your look out son, not anyone else's.

From you! I love it, you have no shame.

Lets' dispute the fact, let's muddy the waters, let's no talk about the problem but instead talk about its existence.

When even Cameron talk about curbing executive pay (talk mind) I stand by the bleedin obvious.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Paul Lake's Left Knee said:
The perfect fumble said:
Of course I have an argument to destroy, this is the original post....

I suspect you like me are on PAYE, maybe with a small bonus element maybe not, so we couldn't abuse the system even if we wanted to. Executive pay has outstripped not only average wages and inflation but even share value and profit. Put simply executives are awarding themselves increases that bear no relationship to performance. Even when performance is related to increased shareholder value this all too often leads to short termism that temporarily boosts the share value, which is then cashed in to the long lasting damage of the company and wider shareholders (not to mention stakeholders like employees).

Legislation to prevent this abuse of the system not only makes economic sense it would be welcomed by many share holders who see executives ripping off companies at their expense.


Your opinion of it, its lack of external links the varacity of my argument, you might consider it nonsense, fine, have at it, but do have at it


Take this one point.....

Executive pay has outstripped average wages and inflation

I have have loads of links to back this up, so why do I not post them? Simple, just as I believe inequality has increased in this country and food bank use has risen in this country, how suicides have increased and the productivity gap is still terrible compared to our competitors, I believe these things to be what my late dad used to call the "bleedin obvious" and these points are not debating points, they're givens, they're lauch pads for discussion.

Right wingers seem to love disputing the "bleedin obvious" Why? Because it stiffles debate, they muddy the waters by refusing to accept there is even a topic to talk about, so we don't address excessive executive pay because, despite all the moutains of evidence, they dispute a problem exists, or if they do, they set up a Commision to look at the evidence (not the problem mind) and they'll get back to us in five years, or never.

Left wingers are tired of having to justify the bleedin obvious, if SWP cries foul then fine but it's not because he doesn't have a point to answer, it is because he can't.

I am not right wing, never have been, if fact i am voting green at the next election, the closest thing to a socialist party that is listed in the polls. You are failing to back up your opinion, time and time again, this is adding nothing to the debate, as it is just that at the moment, an opinion, we all have one of those, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's no matter how much you insist its bleedin obvious. Surely if you have the mentioned links already then it would be a lot simpler to post them up, than typing what you just have. The fact is you wont as you think it is somehow clever or bleedin obvious, it isnt, its actually devaluing your point now. Do us all a favour and post your evidence, as your opinion might have some semblance of a fact then. I want and encourage you to do this as someone who thinks you are probably correct.

In the spirit of one City fan to another....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...TSE-100-firms-on-excessive-executive-pay.html

Vince Cable warns FTSE 100 firms on 'excessive' executive pay

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31686622

Seven-figure salaries damage UK firms' reputation, poll suggests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16458570

Cameron promises powers to limit executives' pay

http://highpaycentre.org/blog/exces...at-to-business-say-institute-of-directors-mem

Excessive executive pay a threat to business, say Institute of Directors members

http://highpaycentre.org/blog/excessive-executive-pay-is-damaging-the-reputation-of-business

Excessive executive pay is damaging the reputation of business

http://www.uk200group.co.uk/Media/PressComment_26035.aspx

News that excessive executive pay is damaging UK business

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...h-business-say-business-leaders-10080832.html

Excessive executive pay threatens British business, say business leaders
You are getting closer but still no cigar.

Not one of those links states that "Executive pay has outstripped not only average wages and inflation but even share value and profit."

There is Vince Cable having a moan and 4 articles repeating the same poll from 1000 people by the UK200Group, which states 52% of those polled think that "excessive levels of executive pay is a significant threat to trust in British businesses."

Which isn't what you actually posted as "being as obvious as the nose of your face".
 
The perfect fumble said:
From you! I love it, you have no shame.

Lets' dispute the fact, let's muddy the waters, let's no talk about the problem but instead talk about its existence.

When even Cameron talk about curbing executive pay (talk mind) I stand by the bleedin obvious.
Have no shame? Spare me the melodramatics and wipe your fanny.

You have yet to provide any evidence of what you stated as I have just posted above.

Posting 3 or 4 articles repeating the same tiny poll that has no facts, figures or timescales is pointless.
 
Damocles said:
worsleyweb said:
Damocles said:
DLA is being phased out to be replaced with PIP now. The care component is about £81 a week where mobility is £56 a week but goes straight to Motability.

What you're talking about in terms of the carer is true. The disabled person is entitled to the car and if unable to drive themselves, can nominate up to two people in a specific radius from their house who can drive it and be covered by their insurance. Usually its their carers.

My point though is that the person is able to drive it because they are nominated by the disabled person who pays for it. The point is so that the disabled person can still have the ability to live their lives out as they normally would without having to suffer through a not fit-for-purpose system of public transport.

Makes a big difference really. Taxi from Mum's house to the local infirmary is about £8 one way and to the main hospital with most of the equipment is about £30 one way. Added in Church which is £4 either way and the town centre which is £5 either way and it adds up a lot. The car is a bit of a Godsend to be honest as she can visit her sisters in Warrington or enjoy a day in the Sun whenever she feels like it. The big thing that these cars do if driven by the full time carer is give her the ability to do things without planning them out days in advance with me or my sister. In turn, we get to work more too and know that she's still living a full life rather than sat cooped up in a terraced house unable to see or go out anywhere.

Great news for your mum. Do you accept that the system may have been abused somewhat?

Yes, as I said in my original post I was correcting facts and didn't post any opinion on how the system is often exploited if at all. I think the system is very much open to exploitation if people are willing to lie their way through. Though my problem with this is that I don't know exactly what we can do about it.

I'm reminded of an episode of House, funnily enough, where he's talking to student Doctors about the idea of identifying the difference between drug seeking behaviours and legitimate patients. In it he basically said that drug seeking behaviour works because they mimic what legitimate pain patients go through and would people rather risk giving druggies a fix then risk not giving a patient in legitimate pain an injection.

In cases of things like suspected child abuse, there's definitely an edge of wanting to remove first, ask questions later too as they essentially make a gambit.

I have no doubt that social workers assessing patients have similar issues though they are very good at checking everything with GPs. So it's a system of passing the buck; the Doctor doesn't want to call someone a liar so says their walking ability is what they say it is, the social worker sees the notes from the Doctor confirming somebody can't walk correctly and all of a sudden they have DLA Mobility. Not quite as easy as that and some bits left out but you get the gist of it.

People who really, really don't want to work with always find someway to exploit those of us who do and we should be working together to track them down. If I was you, I'd definitely report anybody who was gaming the system. My Mum is disabled and needs the car, 100 visits from a social worker and surveillance isn't going to change that and she has nothing to hide. They tend to be nice people as well and she'd probably enjoy the opportunity for a chinwag with somebody new to be honest.

Well I'm not sure who's out there giving people the benefit of the doubt but it certainly isn't the morons dealing with my partners mum. On the contrary they seem intent on denying her disability by any means necessary, and the interviews sound incredibly rude to boot. Starting to turn into a genuine worry because there's no way she can work.
 
SWP's back said:
The perfect fumble said:
Paul Lake's Left Knee said:
I am not right wing, never have been, if fact i am voting green at the next election, the closest thing to a socialist party that is listed in the polls. You are failing to back up your opinion, time and time again, this is adding nothing to the debate, as it is just that at the moment, an opinion, we all have one of those, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's no matter how much you insist its bleedin obvious. Surely if you have the mentioned links already then it would be a lot simpler to post them up, than typing what you just have. The fact is you wont as you think it is somehow clever or bleedin obvious, it isnt, its actually devaluing your point now. Do us all a favour and post your evidence, as your opinion might have some semblance of a fact then. I want and encourage you to do this as someone who thinks you are probably correct.

In the spirit of one City fan to another....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...TSE-100-firms-on-excessive-executive-pay.html

Vince Cable warns FTSE 100 firms on 'excessive' executive pay

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31686622

Seven-figure salaries damage UK firms' reputation, poll suggests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16458570

Cameron promises powers to limit executives' pay

http://highpaycentre.org/blog/exces...at-to-business-say-institute-of-directors-mem

Excessive executive pay a threat to business, say Institute of Directors members

http://highpaycentre.org/blog/excessive-executive-pay-is-damaging-the-reputation-of-business

Excessive executive pay is damaging the reputation of business

http://www.uk200group.co.uk/Media/PressComment_26035.aspx

News that excessive executive pay is damaging UK business

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...h-business-say-business-leaders-10080832.html

Excessive executive pay threatens British business, say business leaders
You are getting closer but still no cigar.

Not one of those links states that "Executive pay has outstripped not only average wages and inflation but even share value and profit."

There is Vince Cable having a moan and 4 articles repeating the same poll from 1000 people by the UK200Group, which states 52% of those polled think that "excessive levels of executive pay is a significant threat to trust in British businesses."

Which isn't what you actually posted as "being as obvious as the nose of your face".

Well done, point not proven, thank god for that! Then there's no problem and nothing need be done. Next, inequality, not proven, just a bunch of whingers move on nothing to see and nothing to be done there either! That's good, business as usual. Tax evasion? details please, come on! Nothing? point fails again, oh this is fun.

This is how you guys roll, there's never a debate and never any change because the very existence of a problem is denied or muddied to the point of incoherence.

Just as you like it.
 

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