Elon Musk

west didsblue said:
You really don’t get it do you.

While SpaceX/Starlink were a reliable operator in a trustworthy jurisdiction there was little incentive for governments and other investors to put much money into developing alternatives.

Do you honestly think European governments are going to be happy carrying on relying on Starlink for military and other essential communications if they know that it can be denied to them on a whim if Trump or Musk wants to pressure a particular government.

The logical consequence is that they will invest in an alternative, and the one that offers something, albeit suboptimal and more expensive, is Oneweb. Once that investment goes in and Oneweb increases its coverage and bandwidth and becomes competitive it will start to get more commercial customers as well as governments.

I remember you making a similar argument about Tesla being so far ahead of its competitors that the rest might as well not bother. Look how that’s turned out.

The fact that you think politics can be totally separated from business is just bizarre.
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But this comes completely down to European capability failure and not the reliability of the US administration or the reliability of a US private company. All of this remember comes from the US so dreadfully telling Europe to defend itself instead of the US doing it for us on their dime.

Hopefully Europe will now wake up but clearly it’s too little too late, the capability gaps are huge. As you’ve mentioned we have to not only do more but also create entire industries that don’t exist. It’s ridiculous though because just you wait until the SDR when Labour butchers UK defence. Our politicians are clueless spineless liars who are even less reliable!

Military leaders have been shouting about this for years and now the chickens have come home to roost. It even goes down to the level of how shit we treat people in the forces. I know of nobody in the forces who is happy and retention is a massive problem. With war now on the horizon we’ve been exposed and unfortunately it is an ally who has pulled our pants down.

Either way the arrogance of the response is astounding. Some seem to think that Europe can wave a magic wand or just win technological battles through moral superiority alone. These things are total fantasy or at least the reality is it’ll take decades and billions which nobody in Europe really has. It’d be cheaper and more effective to just wait out the next 4 years instead and then make friends again…

I’m firmly of the opinion that we have to tolerate this US administration and work with them because otherwise we’re screwed and that’s our own doing. We have to accept for example that there is only one reliable launch provider and therefore one ‘Starlink’ in the western world for the foreseeable future. Burn that relationship and we only lose.
 
inbetween said:
But this comes completely down to European capability failure and not the reliability of the US administration or the reliability of a US private company. All of this remember comes from the US so dreadfully telling Europe to defend itself instead of the US doing it for us on their dime.

Hopefully Europe will now wake up but clearly it’s too little too late, the capability gaps are huge. As you’ve mentioned we have to not only do more but also create entire industries that don’t exist. It’s ridiculous though because just you wait until the SDR when Labour butchers UK defence. Our politicians are clueless spineless liars who are even less reliable!

Military leaders have been shouting about this for years and now the chickens have come home to roost. It even goes down to the level of how shit we treat people in the forces. I know of nobody in the forces who is happy and retention is a massive problem. With war now on the horizon we’ve been exposed and unfortunately it is an ally who has pulled our pants down.

Either way the arrogance of the response is astounding. Some seem to think that Europe can wave a magic wand or just win technological battles through moral superiority alone. These things are total fantasy or at least the reality is it’ll take decades and billions which nobody in Europe really has. It’d be cheaper and more effective to just wait out the next 4 years instead and then make friends again…

I’m firmly of the opinion that we have to tolerate this US administration and work with them because otherwise we’re screwed and that’s our own doing. We have to accept for example that there is only one reliable launch provider and therefore one ‘Starlink’ in the western world for the foreseeable future. Burn that relationship and we only lose.
Click to expand...
Whilst I hate Trump and his whole administration, it is odd that European nations have reduced their military capabilities to the extent that they have, like you say become dependent on the US.
 
idahoblues said:
Whilst I hate Trump and his whole administration, it is odd that European nations have reduced their military capabilities to the extent that they have, like you say become dependent on the US.
Click to expand...
I think it’s been too easy and in part America has been taken for granted. The US will always spend a shit tonne on defence and under ‘normal’ administrations would stick up for their neighbours. So why not save some money and just put bare minimum into defence spending? Like you say, that dependency is about to bite us all in the arse.
 
inbetween said:
But this comes completely down to European capability failure and not the reliability of the US administration or the reliability of a US private company. All of this remember comes from the US so dreadfully telling Europe to defend itself instead of the US doing it for us on their dime.

Hopefully Europe will now wake up but clearly it’s too little too late, the capability gaps are huge. As you’ve mentioned we have to not only do more but also create entire industries that don’t exist. It’s ridiculous though because just you wait until the SDR when Labour butchers UK defence. Our politicians are clueless spineless liars who are even less reliable!

Military leaders have been shouting about this for years and now the chickens have come home to roost. It even goes down to the level of how shit we treat people in the forces. I know of nobody in the forces who is happy and retention is a massive problem. With war now on the horizon we’ve been exposed and unfortunately it is an ally who has pulled our pants down.

Either way the arrogance of the response is astounding. Some seem to think that Europe can wave a magic wand or just win technological battles through moral superiority alone. These things are total fantasy or at least the reality is it’ll take decades and billions which nobody in Europe really has. It’d be cheaper and more effective to just wait out the next 4 years instead and then make friends again…

I’m firmly of the opinion that we have to tolerate this US administration and work with them because otherwise we’re screwed and that’s our own doing. We have to accept for example that there is only one reliable launch provider and therefore one ‘Starlink’ in the western world for the foreseeable future. Burn that relationship and we only lose.
Click to expand...
Don’t even know where to start with this.

You’ve broadened a discussion about a satellite based communication system controlled by a megalomaniac and turned it into a critique of European defence policy over the last 80 years, throwing in a number of inaccurate and exaggerated comments about European capabilities with a little dig at Labour despite all the biggest cuts to our defence capability happening under Conservative governments.

I’ll leave you to it.
 
idahoblues said:
Whilst I hate Trump and his whole administration, it is odd that European nations have reduced their military capabilities to the extent that they have, like you say become dependent on the US.
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Being dependent on on the US has suited successive US and European governments because it’s enabled US industry to export massive quantities of defence equipment to numerous countries whilst retaining influence right across the world. It’s suited Europe because they’ve been lulled into spending less on their own capabilities leaving money to be spent elsewhere.
Now everybody loses in the short term. The US will lose a lot of its market and Europe will have to spend huge amounts of money to become more self reliant.

Long term Europe will be better off if it can build up its own capabilities but that’s going to take a number of years. Similarly long term the US will be worse off as it will lose market share for its defence industry and will lose influence around the world as countries reduce their reliance on the US.
 
idahoblues said:
Whilst I hate Trump and his whole administration, it is odd that European nations have reduced their military capabilities to the extent that they have, like you say become dependent on the US.
Click to expand...
I think it suited the US to have this dependency.
The US has interests around the world that other nations have helped police.
It gave the US certain control on world events.

It is only now that Trump's apparent isolationist tendencies, that the flaw in this plan becomes an issue.

It's like the wife who doesn't work because the husband earns a decent amount, and he prefers her to stay at home.
It's only during the divorce does the women realise how much power that gave him, and she now has to sort her finances out ASAP etc.

In time, the allies will sort out their finances (military).
Future US leaders will pay the cost of not having the support/control or trust they also took for granted.
There are no winners here. Trump is systematically destroying the US from within.
At least for now, people just hate Trump not the US in general. I think we are just waiting for the sane/good people to take back control!
 
idahoblues said:
Whilst I hate Trump and his whole administration, it is odd that European nations have reduced their military capabilities to the extent that they have, like you say become dependent on the US.
Click to expand...
It was something that has been encouraged by USA for many years, and has suited their allies. Think that's all changed now though, and I see that as a good thing for Europe.
 
inbetween said:
But this comes completely down to European capability failure and not the reliability of the US administration or the reliability of a US private company. All of this remember comes from the US so dreadfully telling Europe to defend itself instead of the US doing it for us on their dime.

Hopefully Europe will now wake up but clearly it’s too little too late, the capability gaps are huge. As you’ve mentioned we have to not only do more but also create entire industries that don’t exist. It’s ridiculous though because just you wait until the SDR when Labour butchers UK defence. Our politicians are clueless spineless liars who are even less reliable!

Military leaders have been shouting about this for years and now the chickens have come home to roost. It even goes down to the level of how shit we treat people in the forces. I know of nobody in the forces who is happy and retention is a massive problem. With war now on the horizon we’ve been exposed and unfortunately it is an ally who has pulled our pants down.

Either way the arrogance of the response is astounding. Some seem to think that Europe can wave a magic wand or just win technological battles through moral superiority alone. These things are total fantasy or at least the reality is it’ll take decades and billions which nobody in Europe really has. It’d be cheaper and more effective to just wait out the next 4 years instead and then make friends again…

I’m firmly of the opinion that we have to tolerate this US administration and work with them because otherwise we’re screwed and that’s our own doing. We have to accept for example that there is only one reliable launch provider and therefore one ‘Starlink’ in the western world for the foreseeable future. Burn that relationship and we only lose.
Click to expand...
Whilst I agree it’s going to take years, who says things will change in 4 years and even if they do, the rest of the world can no longer trust America, once bitten twice shy. The USA arms industry is really going to suffer I bet they are panicking like fuck because long term Europe will fuck them off, still I suppose Russia can buy off them.
 
super_city_si said:
I think it’s been too easy and in part America has been taken for granted. The US will always spend a shit tonne on defence and under ‘normal’ administrations would stick up for their neighbours. So why not save some money and just put bare minimum into defence spending? Like you say, that dependency is about to bite us all in the arse.
Click to expand...
The nature of that relationship was unquestionably symbiotic. It gave the US the power, influence and revenue it sought from the arrangement and meant that Europe always bent the knee.
 
fulabeer said:
It's like the wife who doesn't work because the husband earns a decent amount, and he prefers her to stay at home.
It's only during the divorce does the women realise how much power that gave him, and she now has to sort her finances out ASAP etc.
Click to expand...
That analogy should be taken even further for illustrative purposes, as the wife staying at home and providing a stable and organised family environment enables the husband to focus on his career, which unquestionably benefited from the arrangement.
 
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