EU referendum

[JULES]

The rights of the individual are stronger and better protected by being in the EU. This is especially important for minorities who are disproportionately the victims of unjust laws, judicial abuse and miscarriages of justice.

tell that to the young girls in rotherham

The economy is more stable and a more stable economy is better for the majority of people. It is very important for the poorest because it gives them more security and the ability to plan for the future and improve their lot. Those who gain from an unstable economy are the very rich.

a stable economy does not mean a good one, the economy is stable in sudan, shit, but stable

The supply of basic goods and foodstuffs is much more secure as a result of EU co-operation. Norway had a butter shortage a few years back and Norwegian were paying £25/lb in the supermarket. Such shortages have become a thing of the past in Britain, since joining the EEC. People no longer have to buy in essential basics in bulk. Again this benefits the poorer most.

this is 2016... not 1946

Being a member of the EU give preferential access to foreign markets, i particular the wealthier markets who are the main targets for the types of goods and services the UK produces. The UK economy and the economies of many of the other member countries are culturally and socially similar. They are the low hanging fruit of international trade.

I dont know who wrote that but its complete crap, try greece and finland

The top 10 richest economies in the world purchase 65% of all goods. Deliberately jeopardizing the relation with any of these markets, such as those in the EU and the USA is economic madness. In contrast, much of the remaining 35% consists of basic necessities and raw materials, neither of which Britain can supply.

why would an exit jeopordize any relationships? no guessing on this one please!

UK manufacturing is so interttwined with manufacturing in other parts of the EU that leaving would cause an unnecessary, costly and potentially disasterous reorganisation:
The UK import/export sectors do not in general produce finished products from raw materails (with the exception of whisky), contarty to what many outers seem to believe. It imports components, refines and constructs larger componenets and re-exports them. It will be impossible for most UK businesses involved in these very important sectors to find comparable suppliers and customers for the same products and services outside the EU;
The expense and investment in finding new customers would drive many businesses into bankruptcy. It costs five times as much to find a new customer as to retain an existing one;
The current over capacity in other EU countries could more easily be adapted to take advantage of the opportunity to replace British industry in the supply chains. Much of the over capacity is in similar sectors to British industries;

I have heard some shit scaremongering but this is just crap

The cost of government borrowing would rise and the British deficit would increase. The pound would be vulnerable to attack as it was attacked under Thatcher.

right...the pound is too strong or too weak...

British financial markets would become under the de-facto jurisdiction of the US if the UK were to leave the EU.

yes thats right..as they are in china and japan!!

Standardization is the future. It is inevitable that countries and economic blocks will agree on common standards to better enable trade. Britain in the EU can have it's voice heard on the issues that are important to British people and British industry. (caveat - if it elects competent politicians who are prepared to cooperate and compromise). Britain outside the EU will be insignificant on the world stage. The Outers obsession with "excess" rules and regulations from the EU are simply a lack of understanding on how trade actually works. The best thing for any producer of high volume low value products is for their product to becoma a commodity.

thats right, lets grow bananas, you have a v poor understanding of how things work, is this a quote from karl marx, it reads from that period?

If the UK also left the European Court of Human Rights it would be forced to give up it's unilateral nuclear deterrent. Not only would this be a disaster for jobs and result the loss of world class expertise it would weaken Britain's defence.

complete bullshit !

 

[smudgedj]

complete bullshit !

Mate don't underestimate the breakdown of civilization in the UK due to a Norwegian style butter shortage.

 

[DiscoSteve]

bollocks - now if it was a tea shortage I might be minded to agree with you

 

[Balti]

Summarise if you would please. All I have read is scare stories about why we should not leave.

Looking for the benefits if staying.

For me a the reasons to leave are:

1. Security and border control I would prefer it if that anyone in the EU did not have the automatic right to work in the UK

2. Related to 1, the threat of Turkey joining.

3. Immigration. We need to do what we believe we need to do, not be dictated to by the EU about how many and when we should take genuine migrants into this country. We just about have control right now, but if we stay I envisage that control being eroded away to nothing.

4. Net contribution, call it £8bn or £10bn, I would prefer we decide where we spend that money.

5. Bureaucracy. EU Commission (unelected) EU Parliament, EU Council of Ministers.... Way too much and way too costly.

Things like intelligence gathering and sharing and terrorist threats are nothing to do with the EU, nothing at all, Look to NATO and the FVEY to cover these issues.

Like I say, I don't agree with what Europe has become, we are drifting toward becoming the United States of Europe and that to me is simply unacceptable. I agree with the common market but not to political and financial integration.

If we stay, then we do need to be fully integrated, financially and politically and as previously stated I do not agree that that is the way to go.

don't come on here spouting all that common sense

 

[jimbopm]

Summarise if you would please. All I have read is scare stories about why we should not leave.

Looking for the benefits if staying.

For me a the reasons to leave are:

1. Security and border control I would prefer it if that anyone in the EU did not have the automatic right to work in the UK.

Maybe you could cite an example where our security has been compromised by the EU's free movement principles? The 7/7 bombers were born and raised in this country, as were Lee Rigby's murderers. Richard Reid 'The Shoe Bomber' another UK native and the chap from Luton who was convicted in the last week or so, born and raised in this country. The threat to our borders and security as a result of EU free movement is greatly overstated by the 'leave' campaign.

2. Related to 1, the threat of Turkey joining.

What exactly is this 'threat'? Did you know that there is already over 50,000 Turkish people living in the UK? The UK supports their case, why would they do this? As Turkey would need unanimous approval from EU members to join - and that is a long way off at the moment - it's not realistic to use Turkey as a lynch pin of the 'Brexit' campaign.

3. Immigration. We need to do what we believe we need to do, not be dictated to by the EU about how many and when we should take genuine migrants into this country. We just about have control right now, but if we stay I envisage that control being eroded away to nothing.

Numerous studies have shown intra-EU immigration to be good for the economy of this country. The migrants who come to the UK tend to be young, healthy and willing to work, causing less of a strain on public services per head than what the native population does. Studies have also found little evidence to support that low-skilled immigration costs UK born people jobs or depresses wages.

4. Net contribution, call it £8bn or £10bn, I would prefer we decide where we spend that money.

The UK's net contribution to the EU budget is 0.5% of GDP. The only way to get back the entirety of this money would be through a complete withdrawal. This is not likely as we are still going to want access to the single market. Keeping access to the single market will mean we would still have to make a contribution to EU funds, something other countries do willingly. However we would be sacrificing our say in the making of EU trading rules and regulations, but still be compelled to follow them.

5. Bureaucracy. EU Commission (unelected) EU Parliament, EU Council of Ministers.... Way too much and way too costly.

The way you have made this a separate point leads one to think that this cost is additional to the money already committed above, it is not. The EU commission does not act unilaterally, it can propose legislation but only the Parliament and the Council can ensure it's adoption. The commission is designed to work for the common good, and has 1 member per state. It is theoretically independent from partisan political interest.

Things like intelligence gathering and sharing and terrorist threats are nothing to do with the EU, nothing at all, Look to NATO and the FVEY to cover these issues.

IntCen, Europol, The TREVI group? Whilst I agree that we are not going to lose intelligence reports overnight were we to withdraw, our integration as a member allows us to determine the role of these agencies and direct them in a way which could be beneficial to us. By leaving the EU we lose that representation.

Like I say, I don't agree with what Europe has become, we are drifting toward becoming the United States of Europe and that to me is simply unacceptable. I agree with the common market but not to political and financial integration.

What has Europe become exactly? Wealthier, more cooperative, less prone to conflict, easier to travel around, simpler to retire to the Algarve or the South of France, easier to get healthcare abroad, easier to find work?

If we stay, then we do need to be fully integrated, financially and politically and as previously stated I do not agree that that is the way to go.

The Prime Minister has negotiated safeguards which prevent 'Ever closer union' should we stay in.

 

[blueonblue]

The rights of the individual are stronger and better protected by being in the EU. This is especially important for minorities who are disproportionately the victims of unjust laws, judicial abuse and miscarriages of justice.

This is the single most misguided statement on the thread and so backwards as to the truth of the matter.

We are a common law country where the rights of the individual are the basis for the Law, all men are equal under that law, the EU laws are written by bureaucrats to protect the state.

The right to silence and trial by a jury of your peers is absolute no matter what any government may want, the EU takes the high handed stance that the individual must be sacrificed for the majority.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Mate don't underestimate the breakdown of civilization in the UK due to a Norwegian style butter shortage.

Yes, it could spread here.

 

[stonerblue]

This goes so far beyond bias as to raise serious questions in anyone who is genuinely undecided, this is not the "Government" who are made up of many who want out, but a small inner circle of prominent "Stay in" politicians, run any of their names in a search for connections to Goldman Sachs and you will see a very disturbing pattern ( Do the same with the EU bigwigs if you want to see a fuller picture).

Nor is it just on the visible campaign, anyone who thinks the BBC is unbiased as it should be, ask yourself why there has been NO coverage of any kind on the Dutch telling the EU to f*ck its self, you could just put it down to the 3 billion in funding it received from the EU (Against its charter), or compare how the stories they do show are spun rather than factual.

32% was the voter turnout for that vote, with two-thirds voting against. Hardly the Dutch telling the EU to fuck itself is it?

 

[stonerblue]

This is the single most misguided statement on the thread and so backwards as to the truth of the matter.

We are a common law country where the rights of the individual are the basis for the Law, all men are equal under that law, the EU laws are written by bureaucrats to protect the state.

The right to silence and trial by a jury of your peers is absolute no matter what any government may want, the EU takes the high handed stance that the individual must be sacrificed for the majority.

extraordinary rendition, torture, guantanamo bay, eck fuckin cetra

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Summarise if you would please. All I have read is scare stories about why we should not leave.

Looking for the benefits if staying.

For me a the reasons to leave are:

1. Security and border control I would prefer it if that anyone in the EU did not have the automatic right to work in the UK

2. Related to 1, the threat of Turkey joining.

3. Immigration. We need to do what we believe we need to do, not be dictated to by the EU about how many and when we should take genuine migrants into this country. We just about have control right now, but if we stay I envisage that control being eroded away to nothing.

4. Net contribution, call it £8bn or £10bn, I would prefer we decide where we spend that money.

5. Bureaucracy. EU Commission (unelected) EU Parliament, EU Council of Ministers.... Way too much and way too costly.

Things like intelligence gathering and sharing and terrorist threats are nothing to do with the EU, nothing at all, Look to NATO and the FVEY to cover these issues.

Like I say, I don't agree with what Europe has become, we are drifting toward becoming the United States of Europe and that to me is simply unacceptable. I agree with the common market but not to political and financial integration.

If we stay, then we do need to be fully integrated, financially and politically and as previously stated I do not agree that that is the way to go.

Good post and do not ever underestimate the implication of Turkey joining.
I have moved this up to position one on my Brexit campaign notes.
The thought is utterly ridiculous and if countries over the Bosphorous having no affiliation with Europe and surrounded and bordered by mindless dangerous cabbages are considered fit to join then whatever next.

And thank you Monsieur Cameron for my free leaflet I received in the post
Mondays are shopping day in the Mania Household and you have saved us all some Euros on Le Bog paper !