EU referendum

[FanchesterCity]

This is why most Unionists are baffled with the TUC's stance...Was at our annual conference a couple of weeks ago in Brighton and there was lots of fringe debates on the subject...the EU s a private boys club...it's not for the working class man...it does not have our best interests at heart...and a lot of people are waking up to that fact

One that's improved or at least stimulated improved workers rights.
One that's improved or at least stimulated improved protection of human rights.
One that's challenged big business (Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon) far more than the UK has.

A private boys club, perhaps. But there is no boys club as elite as the British one.
And it's successive British governments who've allowed our manufacturing industry to decline,whilst those elitist Germans have let theirs prosper.

 

[Monkfish]

Careful you are trying to have a reasoned debated with Lord monkfish of economics.

It's taken me 50 pages to get him to say yes countries outside the European Union can happily trade with countries within the eu and do so very nicely everyday. And the day after we leave those trades /orders will continue.

got an A at GCSE, that make me a Lord? And why apart from the Brexiteers habit of making stuff up did you make the '50 pages...' line up? I don't get it

How the EU has trade agreements with 'the world' may not play out here, it could well be in the interests of the unelected (apart from in the instances of trade ward of course BoB) bureaucrats to royally fuck the UK if we did vote leave. Be a twatty thing to do but it they could well see it in their interests

Anyway on reflection glad you made things up about me Wanda, puts me in line with the EU, IMF, the BBC etcetcetc.... and everyone else you make stuff up about

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I do too as I heard some better rounded arguments in the indy ref from that age group, although I realise that would be another nail in the coffin for the leave vote, with all the other concessions that have been made to Irish voters etc I would be astonished if leave were to prevail. The baton will just pass on to Denmark or France next.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

got an A at GCSE, that make me a Lord? And why apart from the Brexiteers habit of making stuff up did you make the '50 pages...' line up? I don't get it

How the EU has trade agreements with 'the world' may not play out here, it could well be in the interests of the unelected (apart from in the instances of trade ward of course BoB) bureaucrats to royally fuck the UK if we did vote leave. Be a twatty thing to do but it they could well see it in their interests

Anyway on reflection glad you made things up about me Wanda, puts me in line with the EU, IMF, the BBC etcetcetc.... and everyone else you make stuff up about

I just want you tell us . The eu must have trade agreements with none eu countries as apparently we will need one? We are going to face tariffs and import duties if we leave which we don't have now tell us what the European Union does with other countries, Japan, USA, well any of the top 10 economies....

You and chippy boy say our businesses will collapse as a consequence...

 

[blueonblue]

I've tried my best to help you understand,

You sir are a f*cking condescending arsehole.

 

[inchy14]

Simply because they bare the brunt of any decision, of course its not practical. You could definitely put a good case forwards for 16 year olds getting the vote though in this referendum for obvious reasons. (though I wouldn't even let them vote on Strictly Come Dancing personally)

That's because they wouldn't know the Foxtrot from a Salsa, however the 16 year olds i know all cantell a lying **** when they see one so are probably the better for voting on this occasion. :0)

 

[Chippy_boy]

Very well said.
I'm all for forward planning and long term stability, who isn't, but at the same time, speak to your mortgage lender about waiting a few years until things improve for your family. The short term pain - even if necessary cannot be overlooked. The 'short term' pain of a bloke losing his job for a year or two becomes a long term recovery period for him - possibly 5 years or more to recover from.
I don't object to a government making that sacrifice IF necessary for the good of the majority, but it should at least acknowledge those sacrifices. The brexit folks are completely ignoring any of this, and gazing starry eyed at the pot of gold at the end of Farage's rainbow.

That's why the normally placid John Major was so angry at the weekend in the media. He thinks (and I agree) that the Brexit camp are being downright dishonest in order to promote their position. They are either too thick to understand and recognise the risks and downsides, or they are simply chosing to mislead people for fear of losing the vote. And I don't think they are too thick.

They are so hell bent on leaving for philosophical reasons (and bugger the consequences) that they are campaigning on a ticket of how marvellous it will be and not telling people about the bugger the consequences part.

 

[FanchesterCity]

No.

You started off by saying "No the £4.00 of imports is what we pay the EU for their goods! They get the tariff / tax, not us".

I pointed out that this wrong and that the receiving country charges the tariff and keeps the tax. You're now (wrongly) playing around with the sales values to frig the numbers. In your example the value of our exports is increasing, which would never happen would it. Quite the opposite.

The sales volumes (and revenues) would go down (in both directions), our balance of trade would therefore improve and we'd get revenue coming into the exchequer from tax receipts on imported goods.

Clearly this completely misses the point that a trade war can never be good for our economy, but I'm afraid in the figures and examples you provided, you did get it the wrong way around and were mistaken.

I stand corrected, my initial example was incorrect - it was intended to illustrate how a sales tax (or import duty) would be negated. To my mind though, it doesn't matter if it's applied as import or sales tax, the negation would still happen.
Of course you couldn't just bump the prices up at those levels inflation, but some 'creep' would and probably would happen. I still believe though that any import duty applied by the UK would be compensated for by the EU - there is no 'getting one over them' (imo).

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I've really done my research into all this, its the first vote i've actually been actively interested in, but im none the fucking wiser how im going to vote.
Its not even because both sides make such great arguments, its because i can smell bullshit and scare stories from both sides. Genuinely have no idea how i'm going to vote, so might even end up not voting at all. So far the only thing swaying my vote is i think boris johnson is a twat

Use the force and resist darth camerons words

 

[Chippy_boy]

You sir are a f*cking condescending arsehole.

Sorry I don't mean to offend, or waste my breath for that matter.

 

[FanchesterCity]

That's why the normally placid John Major was so angry at the weekend in the media. He thinks (and I agree) that the Brexit camp are being downright dishonest in order to promote their position. They are either too thick to understand and recognise the risks and downsides, or they are simply chosing to mislead people for fear of losing the vote. And I don't think they are too thick.

They are so hell bent on leaving for philosophical reasons (and bugger the consequences) that they are campaigning on a ticket of how marvellous it will be and not telling people about the bugger the consequences part.

I agree and worse still, it seems that many of those cheering on the overt partriotism and 'we won't be bullied' rhetoric are those who may well be unceremoniously bullied into colleting P45's when their foreign owned company pulls out.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I still believe though that any import duty applied by the UK would be compensated for by the EU

Of course it would, and since they export more and we less, whatever tariffs were charged, we'd gain more and them less. Still, let's move on.

 

[cibaman]

Care to share how this works when the vast majority of UK companies do no trade with the EU ?

Nor have I ever said a trade war would be good, I said we would win it because we benefit more, but are people so f*cking gullible that they think its even on the cards, the EU dont make, sell, or buy anything but businesses do, if its bad for business the politicians get changed.

Countries do not win trade wars. Some don't lose quite as much as others.

We probably would not lose quite as much as the EU as a whole, in absolute terms. But their loss would be borne by 27 countries. Which makes a difference as to how easy it would be for individual countries to bear the loss.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I just want you tell us . The eu must have trade agreements with none eu countries as apparently we will need one? We are going to face tariffs and import duties if we leave which we don't have now tell us what the European Union does with other countries, Japan, USA, well any of the top 10 economies....

You and chippy boy say our businesses will collapse as a consequence...

Collapse? Who said collapse?

I said it would be damaged. Our exports would be damaged, and we would be poorer as a result and some UK businesses in time would move production and facilities overseas, which would hurt jobs.

I am beginning to think it is the Brexit camp that are perpetuating this "UK business would collapse" line, so they can squash it and proves themselves right. NO-ONE is saying UK business will collapse. Can you not differentiate between "not a good thing" and "total calamity"?

 

[smudgedj]

The annual three-day Bilderberg conference kicks off on Thursday, and you can be sure the mood in Dresden will be a grim one. The heads of Google, Shell, BP and Deutsche Bank will be there, and Brexit will be top of the agenda. The Bilderberg Group has been nurturing the EU to life since the 1950s, and now they see their creation under dire threat.

“A disaster for everyone” is how Henri de Castries, the boss of AXA and a director of HSBC, describes Brexit. But in particular, it is a disaster for his banking and big business colleagues at Bilderberg. Thomas Enders, the CEO of Airbus, who sits on Bilderberg’s steering committee – the group’s governing body – said, in a recent interview with CNBC, that his industry would be “lobbying” against Brexit.

Enders said: “Long-term it would not be positive certainly for the industry. This why the aerospace industry – I think amongst others – will lobby… for a [Remain] vote of the British electorate on the EU.”

Goldman Sachs has two senior representatives on Bilderberg’s steering committee: James A. Johnson, a board member of the bank, and Robert Zoellick, the chairman of Goldman Sachs’ board of international advisors. We know from Charity Commission accounts that Goldman Sachs, along with BP, is one of the key funders of the group, and we also know that they’ve been pumping “a substantial six-figure sum” into the Remain campaign. And Goldman Sachs doesn’t spend money lightly. The Remain campaign is clearly close to whatever they have instead of a heart.

For Bilderberg, as for Goldman Sachs, the idea that there might be any kind of push-back against globalisation is a horrific one. I suspect we’ll glimpse some frowning faces behind the tinted glass as the limousines start rolling up on Thursday.

An integrated EU, with the City at its centre, is a key building block in a globalised world, and its potential loss is a huge concern for “the high priests of globalisation”, as Will Hutton called the members of Bilderberg. The prospect of Brexit “frightens me”, admit Ken Jacobs, the head of Lazard, and another member of Bilderberg’s inner circle. Not much frightens these people. Only two things: sunlight and Brexit.

From http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bilderberg-2016-we-can-expect-desperate-lobbying-against-brexit-big-business-1563898

Bilderberg eh , I fully expect our reptilian overlords are orchestrating a chem trail campaign to make us forget the referendum.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Collapse? Who said collapse?

I said it would be damaged. Our exports would be damaged, and we would be poorer as a result and some UK businesses in time would move production and facilities overseas, which would hurt jobs.

I am beginning to think it is the Brexit camp that are perpetuating this "UK business would collapse" line, so they can squash it and proves themselves right. NO-ONE is saying UK business will collapse. Can you not differentiate between "not a good thing" and "total calamity"?

Just tell me , or your pal monkfish, (or are you the same person), what you base your prophecies of doom on?

We have been in the eu 40 years there must be a trade agreement that exists between the eu and countries outside the eu zone. There are examples are there not of how the USA, China, Japan etc are treated regarding import tariffs and duties etc when dealing with the eu.

You must have some examples to support what you say what will happen to our trading relationship with the eu. You aren t just making it up and guessing are you?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Just tell me , or your pal monkfish, (or are you the same person), what you base your prophecies of doom on?

We have been in the eu 40 years there must be a trade agreement that exists between the eu and countries outside the eu zone. There are examples are there not of how the USA, China, Japan etc are treated regarding import tariffs and duties etc when dealing with the eu.

You must have some examples to support what you say what will happen to our trading relationship with the eu. You aren t just making it up and guessing are you?

What's your point Kevin? Seriously, what is it you want?

You, me, my cat and goldfish can understand that if we have no trade deal with the EU (or a deal with tariffs) then it will not be good for trade and that's not good for our economy. What more "information" do you want.

If you want to know what the US's sales into the EU *would have been* had they been part of the EU, I can't help with that, can I.

 

[Pino]

The plans by Brussels to return irregular asylum seekers from Greece to Turkey violate EU and international law, as Turkey is incapable of providing refugees with adequate protection, Amnesty International has said. ‘Reckless & illegal’: Amnesty calls on EU to halt refugee deal with Turkey.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Collapse? Who said collapse?

I said it would be damaged. Our exports would be damaged, and we would be poorer as a result and some UK businesses in time would move production and facilities overseas, which would hurt jobs.

I am beginning to think it is the Brexit camp that are perpetuating this "UK business would collapse" line, so they can squash it and proves themselves right. NO-ONE is saying UK business will collapse. Can you not differentiate between "not a good thing" and "total calamity"?

The exports issue will potentially cost jobs but if for example we start importing cheaper, lower standard hoods that are currently under tariffs this could lead to further job losses such as have happened in the steel industry. Even today with a protected market, UK companies are using cheaper labour and pushing down prices, when opened up to the full competition of massively cheaper markets in Asia this will really push down wages , salaries etc. This is what some of the Brexit leaders are hoping to profit from cheaper labour, fewer rights etc.

 

[EalingBlue2]

What's your point Kevin? Seriously, what is it you want?

You, me, my cat and goldfish can understand that if we have no trade deal with the EU (or a deal with tariffs) then it will not be good for trade and that's not good for our economy. What more "information" do you want.

If you want to know what the US's sales into the EU *would have been* had they been part of the EU, I can't help with that, can I.

There are some big examples look at what happened with commonwealth trade flows when the UK joined the EU that shows what happens when major trading parties are no longer in the same club