stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Er, i'd say successive UK governments have given us austerity, neo-liberalism, wars and refugees all on their own.
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EU referendum
- Thread starter Ric
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Er, i'd say successive UK governments have given us austerity, neo-liberalism, wars and refugees all on their own.
stonerblue
Well-Known Member
Excellent post Chippy Boy.
Part of the problem is that uncontrolled immigration is adding to weaknesses in our infrastructure such as a shortage of clinical staff in Accident and Emrgency Departments
But the lovely Tories will throw loads of the cash they've saved at the NHS and Schools and whatnot surely?
BlueHammer85
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1) I wasn't surprised at all that Remain is funded by JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and all the other privatising buccaneers. Every rapacious, rotten, exploiting capitalist corporation is doing everything it can for Remain. Every working person should think twice before voting with these people.
2) The EU has legal requirements for spending levels, austerity is a legal requirement. Breach them, like Greece, and the EU will crush you. The EU has outlawed Keynesianism, let alone socialism.
(George Galloway)
2) The EU has legal requirements for spending levels, austerity is a legal requirement. Breach them, like Greece, and the EU will crush you. The EU has outlawed Keynesianism, let alone socialism.
(George Galloway)
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
The TUC doesn't seem quite so convinced.
https://www.tuc.org.uk/international-issues/europe
500,000 job losses make Brexit too big a risk for working people, says TUC
Women workers and the EU: The gains from EU membership and the risks of Brexit
Brexit risks “turning the clock back decades” on women’s rights, TUC report warns
Better off in - Working people and the case for remaining in the EU
Up to 40 billion reasons our public services need us in the EU
Wages would be £38 a week lower outside the EU, says TUC report
It pays for North East workers to remain in the European Union
Leave campaigners have announced plans to scrap workers’ rights, says TUC
IanBishopsHaircut
Well-Known Member
The TUC doesn't seem quite so convinced.
https://www.tuc.org.uk/international-issues/europe
500,000 job losses make Brexit too big a risk for working people, says TUC
Women workers and the EU: The gains from EU membership and the risks of Brexit
Brexit risks “turning the clock back decades” on women’s rights, TUC report warns
Better off in - Working people and the case for remaining in the EU
Up to 40 billion reasons our public services need us in the EU
Wages would be £38 a week lower outside the EU, says TUC report
It pays for North East workers to remain in the European Union
Leave campaigners have announced plans to scrap workers’ rights, says TUC
The EU is anti Union...this is a fact not an opinion...no amount of scare mongering by the remain can say otherwise...because it's been anti Union way before a referendum has been called
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
The EU is anti Union...this is a fact not an opinion...no amount of scare mongering by the remain can say otherwise...because it's been anti Union way before a referendum has been called
Carry on brother, carry on. You've got their number alright. What does the TUC know.
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
No, WE get twice the tariff income. The RECEIVING country charges the tariff and KEEPS the money.
Blueonblue is completely mistaken if he thinks a trade war ilke this could be good for our economy overall, but in this particular respect - that it would boost our tax receipts (in respect of our imported goods) and narrow our deficit, he is correct.
Yes, I understand that, but I'm saying the other party will adjust their prices accordingly. If you want to charge me extra for selling to you, I will do the same in return.
So let's look at the maths differently
EU Orange selling for 2.00
UK Apple selling for 1.00
With no tariff either side, the EU is £1.00 up on us.
Now the tariff war starts:
The UK says it's going to charge us 25% import duty when the EU sells an orange to us.
The EU says 'ok, we will make our oranges 4.00, and you receive 1.00 duty'
The EU then says to the UK - we are going to charge you 25% import duty also.
The UK says 'ok we are going to sell our apples for 2.00 and you get 50p duty'
The EU made 3.00 overall
The UK made 1.50 overall
IanBishopsHaircut
Well-Known Member
Carry on brother, carry on. You've got their number alright. What does the TUC know.
I'm sure you can read Chippy...read the articles on the link I provided...this is our one chance to get out of this farce
AlgarveBlu
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plans to extend the time to register to vote...
not suprised as its the kids who didnt register, and they are the ones most likely to vote remain
(which makes the angry white middle aged mens rallying cry to vote leave 'for your children and grandchildren' amusing)
still think young peoples vote should count more, the core vote for leave will be dead before the disaster of a leave vote truly hits home, not like a GE where its 5 years of disaster
I agree that it's naturally the kids that will bare the brunt of the result but why should there vote count more?
We've had over 600 pages of argument and counter argument here and I don't know what the average age of posters are but maybe around 45 lets say , one thing that has remained fairly constant is that people are drawing their arguments in the main part as to how our relationship with the eu has effected us through our life experiences and trying to use that information to guess at what tomorrow may bring in or out.
About time the left woke up -
blueonblue
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They not scare stories mate......most working class people cannot afford to be interested in what the long term benefit "might" be ( I use the word "might" because no matter how hard you try to hide away from the risks,
I use the "Might" as a slap at every scare story the remainians put out, I would say that its the "Working class" that are the victims of being in the EU not the f*ckers trying to get you to stay in.
You're completely mistaken mate.
44% of our exports go to the EU. Damage our EU export business and 44% of our export business is damaged. And the UK (one country) shoulders all of that burden.
Now dont be naughty, you stated half the UK manufacturers would go bump, when you know full well the percentage of manufacturers that do ANY business with the EU is nowhere near 50%.
Percentages mean little when you say "16%" but count the whole of the EU because it distorts the truth, so lets play your game.
What percentage of German engineering workers ( Including car workers) would be laid off if that "16%" of trade stopped dead ?
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
Care to share how this works when the vast majority of UK companies do no trade with the EU ?
Nor have I ever said a trade war would be good, I said we would win it because we benefit more, but are people so f*cking gullible that they think its even on the cards, the EU dont make, sell, or buy anything but businesses do, if its bad for business the politicians get changed.
Those 'vast majority of companies that don't trade with the EU' are actually the vast majority who don't trade internationally AT ALL. Therefore they aren't going to be affected directly by any improved or worsened trade deals.
They will be affected indirectly though due to the increase (or reduction) in the cost of any imported goods they buy from a wholesaler (say).
Of those that DO trade internationally, almost all of them DO trade with the EU.
Remember most UK businesses are small businesses - shops, plumbers, electricians etc they simply don't trade internationally at all. So Farage's great trade deals with the commonwealth aren't going to directly benefit them either.
Monkfish
Well-Known Member
I agree that it's naturally the kids that will bare the brunt of the result but why should there vote count more?
Simply because they bare the brunt of any decision, of course its not practical. You could definitely put a good case forwards for 16 year olds getting the vote though in this referendum for obvious reasons. (though I wouldn't even let them vote on Strictly Come Dancing personally)
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
Yes, I understand that, but I'm saying the other party will adjust their prices accordingly. If you want to charge me extra for selling to you, I will do the same in return.
So let's look at the maths differently
EU Orange selling for 2.00
UK Apple selling for 1.00
With no tariff either side, the EU is £1.00 up on us.
Now the tariff war starts:
The UK says it's going to charge us 25% import duty when the EU sells an orange to us.
The EU says 'ok, we will make our oranges 4.00, and you receive 1.00 duty'
The EU then says to the UK - we are going to charge you 25% import duty also.
The UK says 'ok we are going to sell our apples for 2.00 and you get 50p duty'
The EU made 3.00 overall
The UK made 1.50 overall
No.
You started off by saying "No the £4.00 of imports is what we pay the EU for their goods! They get the tariff / tax, not us".
I pointed out that this wrong and that the receiving country charges the tariff and keeps the tax. You're now (wrongly) playing around with the sales values to frig the numbers. In your example the value of our exports is increasing, which would never happen would it. Quite the opposite.
The sales volumes (and revenues) would go down (in both directions), our balance of trade would therefore improve and we'd get revenue coming into the exchequer from tax receipts on imported goods.
Clearly this completely misses the point that a trade war can never be good for our economy, but I'm afraid in the figures and examples you provided, you did get it the wrong way around and were mistaken.
I've really done my research into all this, its the first vote i've actually been actively interested in, but im none the fucking wiser how im going to vote.
Its not even because both sides make such great arguments, its because i can smell bullshit and scare stories from both sides. Genuinely have no idea how i'm going to vote, so might even end up not voting at all. So far the only thing swaying my vote is i think boris johnson is a twat
Its not even because both sides make such great arguments, its because i can smell bullshit and scare stories from both sides. Genuinely have no idea how i'm going to vote, so might even end up not voting at all. So far the only thing swaying my vote is i think boris johnson is a twat
kevin horlocks wand
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I use the "Might" as a slap at every scare story the remainians put out, I would say that its the "Working class" that are the victims of being in the EU not the f*ckers trying to get you to stay in.
Now dont be naughty, you stated half the UK manufacturers would go bump, when you know full well the percentage of manufacturers that do ANY business with the EU is nowhere near 50%.
Percentages mean little when you say "16%" but count the whole of the EU because it distorts the truth, so lets play your game.
What percentage of German engineering workers ( Including car workers) would be laid off if that "16%" of trade stopped dead ?
Careful you are trying to have a reasoned debated with Lord monkfish of economics.
It's taken me 50 pages to get him to say yes countries outside the European Union can happily trade with countries within the eu and do so very nicely everyday. And the day after we leave those trades /orders will continue.
Now then to his next point, these nasty tariffs trade agreements and years of uncertainty post brexits. Well if we leave the Eu what are the examples he could share with us so we could make an estimated guess of what this may look like for us. We would be a none eu country wanting to trade with our European counterparts (and them us don't forget) you used the example of Nissan what is the terms of the Japan eu trading agreement, we talked McDonald's, what are the terms of the eu USA trading agreement.
Surely we can see how the Eu has behaved with other countries and seen the tariffs and import duties on these countries and then we can probably take an average with the eu and say it's top 5 trading agreemengs and apply similar. What do those trading agreements say ? Rather than guessing use some examples of these trade agreements that must exist don't they?
What is also lost on people is companies and boards want to sell stuff to anyone. The idea that any company , global at that, would want to cease to sell their goods to us in the uk cos we are no longer in the eu, obviously don't know many directors.
plans to extend the time to register to vote...
not suprised as its the kids who didnt register, and they are the ones most likely to vote remain
(which makes the angry white middle aged mens rallying cry to vote leave 'for your children and grandchildren' amusing)
still think young peoples vote should count more, the core vote for leave will be dead before the disaster of a leave vote truly hits home, not like a GE where its 5 years of disaster
It doesn't necessarily follow that the ones that couldn't register in time would vote in line with the rest of the kids if they get the chance.
From Cameron's comments at PMQ's it looks like they're trying to give them the opportunity.
blueonblue
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The TUC doesn't seem quite so convinced.
Rather than post up different sides of the argument lets take a step back and just look at the position the TUC seems to be taking.
Why would any trade union want excess cheap labour to undermine pay and working conditions when its spent the last hundred years fighting for them, has it not been the rallying cry that its the bosses that want to bring in cheap labour to do just that.
If only on the grounds of self preservation it makes no sense, migrants do not join a union.
This is one that should stink to high heaven even to the most ardent remainian, as should Corbyn taking up a similar position despite a life long campaign AGAINST the EU, the fix is in for all to see.
IanBishopsHaircut
Well-Known Member
Rather than post up different sides of the argument lets take a step back and just look at the position the TUC seems to be taking.
Why would any trade union want excess cheap labour to undermine pay and working conditions when its spent the last hundred years fighting for them, has it not been the rallying cry that its the bosses that want to bring in cheap labour to do just that.
If only on the grounds of self preservation it makes no sense, migrants do not join a union.
This is one that should stink to high heaven even to the most ardent remainian, as should Corbyn taking up a similar position despite a life long campaign AGAINST the EU, the fix is in for all to see.
This is why most Unionists are baffled with the TUC's stance...Was at our annual conference a couple of weeks ago in Brighton and there was lots of fringe debates on the subject...the EU s a private boys club...it's not for the working class man...it does not have our best interests at heart...and a lot of people are waking up to that fact
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
They not scare stories mate......most working class people cannot afford to be interested in what the long term benefit "might" be ( I use the word "might" because no matter how hard you try to hide away from the risks, they are there and very real) Most rational people believe that any agreement we'll have wont be as good as the one we have now(for many reasons stated over the hundreds of pages in this thread)......Most rational people voting in and out, also will agree there will be a negative impact on the economy "short term"....and common sense tells us that most average, working class people....who pay a mortgage and have other debts, only just get by "month to month".....asking them to vote for an idea that could take years and then they still might not see a benefit, is crazy....I respect your views mate...but no matter what side of the fence you are on, you only going to see what you want to see.....which I guess is just human nature
Very well said.
I'm all for forward planning and long term stability, who isn't, but at the same time, speak to your mortgage lender about waiting a few years until things improve for your family. The short term pain - even if necessary cannot be overlooked. The 'short term' pain of a bloke losing his job for a year or two becomes a long term recovery period for him - possibly 5 years or more to recover from.
I don't object to a government making that sacrifice IF necessary for the good of the majority, but it should at least acknowledge those sacrifices. The brexit folks are completely ignoring any of this, and gazing starry eyed at the pot of gold at the end of Farage's rainbow.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
I use the "Might" as a slap at every scare story the remainians put out, I would say that its the "Working class" that are the victims of being in the EU not the f*ckers trying to get you to stay in.
Now dont be naughty, you stated half the UK manufacturers would go bump, when you know full well the percentage of manufacturers that do ANY business with the EU is nowhere near 50%.
Percentages mean little when you say "16%" but count the whole of the EU because it distorts the truth, so lets play your game.
What percentage of German engineering workers ( Including car workers) would be laid off if that "16%" of trade stopped dead ?
Oh FFS, stop with the playing games shite, i am not playing games. I've tried my best to help you understand, but honestly, vote how you like, I really don't give a shit and nothing I say on here will affect how you vote and will have diddly squat influence on the result.
"half the UK manufacturers would go bump" was a figure of speach, but a load of them would. It's not about who exports and who doesn't. What about imports that are now more expensive? Raw materials costs increasing and pushing up the cost of finished goods, which depresses sales and puts firms out of business. I don't expect you to believe this, or even to listen, so I don't know why I bother really.
Percentages mean very little when they don't suit your argument.
How would 16% of the EU's trade with us stop dead??? FFS, I thought you'd moved beyond that because we've all agreed that to suggest that is stupid and no-one is suggesting it. But no, it's the only straw you have so cling on to it. No, it wouldn't happen. German car sales would be depressed and they'd need a few less people probably. Targets would be missed and bonuses and overtime cut. They wouldn't like it at all, but they'd manage. The other 26 countries would care even less.
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