EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

Typical left wing argument and about your only one.

Accuse them of either being xenophobic, racist or preferably both.

Just thinking about my grandfather now who fought in North Africa, Italy and Europe because he was amongst millions that did so for our freedom and sovereignty.

If you aren't of that opinion why defend someone making a ridiculous offensive comparison. Why not just put forward the argument for Britain's future and what it will be.

That was asked by a few and in return Sweden was insulted and the European council was likened to naziism. That wasn't my argument

 

[EalingBlue2]

I'll take your comparison with popes and monarchs, but not sure about the Hitler / Gandhi one tbh. Perhaps the fact that the EU has grown out of a trading association to become something with aims similar to popes, monarchs, and dictators throughout European history is in itself a good reason to be sceptical about the EU?

the gandhi comment meant that just because two people share a characteristic or two does not make them comparable. I don't think anyone has an issue with the outters who do so for better motives than disliking European neighbours and fearing a nazi takeover

 

[hgblue]

I would suggest Blueishswede is going to be ok when the UK goes to the dogs so doesn't need fury, possibly benevolent sadness. Ultimately when people are headstrong and blind to doing something foolish and ultimately against their interests then the emotion get is sympathy and in some ways pity.

Fury perhaps comes when years later they whinge at you and try and blame you for their errors.

The fury will come from the north, Wales, Scotland when they suffer hugely and the U.K. Fractures into an England run for and by the south east and ultimately a one party state that is against the NHS, workers rights and is run in the interest of a very small group of the population. i am sure the destruction of socialised medicine they despise will be a triumph the destruction of the Union maybe not?

Blueishswede said that the truth about Europe is, nobody likes us, nobody needs us. This is what I was responding to.
The irony is that the people who are headstrong and blind to doing something foolish and against their interests are about to vote to remain in a declining undemocratic political project.

 

[blueinsa]

No one like us but we will have the £Billions thanks very much lol

vote out.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Blueishswede said that the truth about Europe is, nobody likes us, nobody needs us. This is what I was responding to.
The irony is that the people who are headstrong and blind to doing something foolish and against their interests are about to vote to remain in a declining undemocratic political project.

Blueishswede said that the truth about Europe is, nobody likes us, nobody needs us. This is what I was responding to.
The irony is that the people who are headstrong and blind to doing something foolish and against their interests are about to vote to remain in a declining undemocratic political project.

The truth is I think Britain is in trouble now either way, if the vote is yes the outers will snipe and undermine afterwards (and vice versa) and if the vote is no it will probably end the UK and hurt all but London. will London share its gain - who knows . The decline has been going for over a century, in or out won't change that now.

Still neither side has any idea of what Britain can and should be doing in future and that is all that will really solve it.

 

[EalingBlue2]

No one like us but we will have the £Billions thanks very much lol

vote out.

Which you will promptly have to spend on thousands of civil servants and some as well as all the other bodies that will be needed. It won't be coming anywhere near you or me

 

[blueinsa]

Which you will promptly have to spend on thousands of civil servants and some as well as all the other bodies that will be needed. It won't be coming anywhere near you or me

Why will we have to spend it on civil servants?

Unless of course you are admitting that most of our laws and policies are coming straight from Europe these days, something the in campaign is going to great lengths to deny?

We already have a political system in place, albeit not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and a civil service perfectly able to run the country.

We do not need to prop up financially a political dream of a united states of Europe held by the Germans and French any longer and nor should we.

NATO keeps us safe, America is and always will be our greatest ally, we can trade with the world on our terms and most of all, our taxes can be spent on our own population and country, regardless of how unwisely the government of the day chooses to do so.

 

[bluesoup]

What this debate needs is the release of proper information from the outers about how much coming out will cost for the new systems we would need to implement to fill the EU void. Only then can we calculate if the billions saved will be worth it. In addition, the inners need to say how what we have in regards to deals and systems we currently have are worth keeping and cannot be bettered by us going alone.

This debate is still shallow and based on personalities, nationalism, anecdotal thinking and we know best. There is little substance at the moment for us all to make a sound decision.

 

[grunge]

They will soon enough though be gone , Britain long term can't afford them

Of course we can, we would just have to change delivery method away from the very expensive trident subs.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I have little doubt that once the UK government has got its hands on this money every penny we will have saved from the EU will have been spent on the UK civil service needed to deal with the tens of thousands of responsibilities, negotiations, trade management, regulations etc we will have to make and manage . As for immigration the big issue is that I don't think the highly skilled, highly able immigrants are going to be pouring in to the UK , from weather , to tax, to the future of the economy as the UK on a world scale is not as attractive as it would like to believe. apart from London and maybe the south east nowhere will gain. What's more if immigration stops the economy will stop growing, the deficit won't close and everyone will have to accept either higher taxes, higher superannuation or a massive decline in services

So what you're saying is the highly skilled immigrants, are not going to come here because of our shit weather and tax system, but we apparently need the millions of unskilled workers that, at present, are allowed to live and
work here? Plus, apparently, according to your reckoning, we apparently need these legions of sandwich fillers and hotel cleaners, as everything will collapse if we deny them entry, as their contribution supports us.
I'd love to know how hundreds of thousands of unskilled immigrants entering yearly helps the UK economy. Considering the biggest purchasers of property in London are affluent French, (the type that do help the economy),
and have moved here to avoid the wonderful socialist government there that taxes the shit out of them, I would suggest that our tax system, the maximum rate being 45%, is more attractive than most.
Why on earth we would need to massively expand a far from understaffed civil service on leaving, is again a strange supposition.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

What this debate needs is the release of proper information from the outers about how much coming out will cost for the new systems we would need to implement to fill the EU void. Only then can we calculate if the billions saved will be worth it. In addition, the inners need to say how what we have in regards to deals and systems we currently have are worth keeping and cannot be bettered by us going alone.

This debate is still shallow and based on personalities, nationalism, anecdotal thinking and we know best. There is little substance at the moment for us all to make a sound decision.

It is being run and organised in much the same way as the Scots Indy vote went. Start scaring people as to what Armageddon really means - all the money and institutions fleeing south if there were a Yes vote - and it worked. The idea of not knowing what might happen when we have to pay our own way and one side suggesting it's gonna be horrendous is what will drive the vote! It all depends how many people stick with the idea that the EU is a busted, corrupt notion that, in political terms, was never gonna succeed.

 

[YPhrunts]

What this debate needs is the release of proper information from the outers about how much coming out will cost for the new systems we would need to implement to fill the EU void. Only then can we calculate if the billions saved will be worth it. In addition, the inners need to say how what we have in regards to deals and systems we currently have are worth keeping and cannot be bettered by us going alone.

This debate is still shallow and based on personalities, nationalism, anecdotal thinking and we know best. There is little substance at the moment for us all to make a sound decision.

That will be difficult when our civil servants have been instructed to withhold information from one side of the debate. But I think there is enough out there to form a visceral opinion you just need to search it out and listen to what some of the interested parties are saying.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

It will cost no more to come out than it will to stay in. The truth is we don't need thousands of new agreements and reams of new legislation. For trade with the EU the legislation is in place, as it is for trade with the rest of the world. The EU subsidised industries will carry on being subsidised but directly from the UK rather than through the tortuous route via Brussels. Industries that previously were denied subsidy due to EU regulations may benefit as the government sees fit which could in some cases give them an advantage on the world stage. The city will not be bound by exclusively EU regulations and so will be free to offer a wider range for financial services which can only make it more competitive and finally and most importantly, the government of the day will no longer have the "it's an EU regulation" excuse and will therefore be more accountable to the electorate restoring democracy and sovereign powers to the nation and its population. Where they belong.

 

[Zuriblue]

It will cost no more to come out than it will to stay in. The truth is we don't need thousands of new agreements and reams of new legislation. For trade with the EU the legislation is in place, as it is for trade with the rest of the world. The EU subsidised industries will carry on being subsidised but directly from the UK rather than through the tortuous route via Brussels. Industries that previously were denied subsidy due to EU regulations may benefit as the government sees fit which could in some cases give them an advantage on the world stage. The city will not be bound by exclusively EU regulations and so will be free to offer a wider range for financial services which can only make it more competitive and finally and most importantly, the government of the day will no longer have the "it's an EU regulation" excuse and will therefore be more accountable to the electorate restoring democracy and sovereign powers to the nation and its population. Where they belong.

That is RAWK level delusion. The fact is that we have no idea what an out vote will lead to, the outers can't or won't say, preferring to whine "scaremongering!!" but the idea that a BREXIT will only have positive consequences is naive in the extreme.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

That is RAWK level delusion. The fact is that we have no idea what an out vote will lead to, the outers can't or won't say, preferring to whine "scaremongering!!" but the idea that a BREXIT will only have positive consequences is naive in the extreme.

Why not address the points made with a substantive rebuttal? It's easy to just offer broad and meaningless comment. look: "The fact is that we have no idea what an in vote will lead to". See, it's just as valid as your statement and equally meaningless.
The only certain positive in my post is the restoration of democracy and sovereignty. You may not see that as a positive but over a thousand years of British history does.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

What delusional nonsense.
We are in
We know the terms under which we are in
We know the future terms won't change by voting to stay in.

The outers cannot offer any info whatsoever and resort to infantile scaremongering.

 

[CityStu]

What delusional nonsense.
We are in
We know the terms under which we are in
We know the future terms won't change by voting to stay in.

The outers cannot offer any info whatsoever and resort to infantile scaremongering.

The terms change. We voted into a Common Market which has now turned into a political Union. Who is to say what the EU will do in the coming years and what say we will have in that? It's common knowledge that Turkey are on the doorstep so it's very possible that the EU will try and push into the Middle East and countries like Azerbaijan, Georgia and Syria.

You would be voting to stay in the EU on its current trajectory, not in its current state.

 

[PJMCC1UK]

Everyone should visit the war graves, a sober sober reminder of what a divided competing Europe did to humanity for many many centuries.

Absolutely. Those two world wars were started by empire expansionist movements. Funnily that is exactly what the EU is about. We continuously get told about trade agreements when what this is really about is far more power being given to far fewer people.
The rise in Nationalism is a result of this expansionism. I've never had a problem with trade agreements. Just the expansion, uncalled for and not actually what any country signed up to.

 

[PJMCC1UK]

What delusional nonsense.
We are in
We know the terms under which we are in
We know the future terms won't change by voting to stay in.

The outers cannot offer any info whatsoever and resort to infantile scaremongering.

Considering all the inners give us is scare stories about how we will fail and won't be able to trade etc I find this quite hypocritical.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

What delusional nonsense.
We are in
We know the terms under which we are in
We know the future terms won't change by voting to stay in.

The outers cannot offer any info whatsoever and resort to infantile scaremongering.

So would you like to tell me what the EU looks like this time next year after another summer of record breaking illegal immigration. Yet another round of Greek bailouts. Massive stress on the Euro due to EU national debt. A falling economic outlook for most of the EU.

That you think you have any idea how that will impact the EU shows the true state of delusion in this conversation.