EU referendum

[yerwot?]

An overwhelming number of posters have to rely on the media for information. The carefully crafted headlines, the outright lies, the ever more lurid stories of the number of refugees are in response to the newspaper baron's diktats. Funnily enough they are all far right.
Apparently if we leave then all we have to do is trade with the rest of the world instead, simple. Like China and India, USA, Russia etc. But I thought we already did, puzzling.
Regarding the EU being corrupt, glass houses and stones spring to mind.
A thatcherite government as this one is, with it's big business friends and anti-worker ideologies being given free rein to roll back the country to Victorian times is to me much scarier than the hypothetical fairy tales about the future as portrayed by the likes of the mail.

 

[mat]

An overwhelming number of posters have to rely on the media for information. The carefully crafted headlines, the outright lies, the ever more lurid stories of the number of refugees are in response to the newspaper baron's diktats. Funnily enough they are all far right.
Apparently if we leave then all we have to do is trade with the rest of the world instead, simple. Like China and India, USA, Russia etc. But I thought we already did, puzzling.
Regarding the EU being corrupt, glass houses and stones spring to mind.
A thatcherite government as this one is, with it's big business friends and anti-worker ideologies being given free rein to roll back the country to Victorian times is to me much scarier than the hypothetical fairy tales about the future as portrayed by the likes of the mail.

All good points.

With the boundary changes and and out vote could lead to an effective one party state with the Tories taking their business planning and employments lead from the China model.

 

[CityStu]

Quick question - Cards on the table I will be voting in. If I am on the wrong side of the vote then I accept we go with the flow and I have to live with it and either stay in a UK thats outside the EU or - if I am still allowed to - move abroad to somewhere in the EU.

If I am on the winning side of the vote will all the outers agree to the same rules? i.e. thats it you lost shut up and live with it or will there be just endless campaigning to come out and complaining that we are in the EU? If that the plan then frankly can't see the point of a referendum.

I think that depends on how our relationship with the EU continues. If we remain at the status quo then absolutely - it's the will of the people that we're part of the club. If we sit on a trajectory that pushes us ever closer to political union, or introduces a truly unacceptable TTIP policy, or starts to spread its branches into the Middle East, then I will begin to consider the validity of the referendum result.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

An overwhelming number of posters have to rely on the media for information. The carefully crafted headlines, the outright lies, the ever more lurid stories of the number of refugees are in response to the newspaper baron's diktats. Funnily enough they are all far right.
Apparently if we leave then all we have to do is trade with the rest of the world instead, simple. Like China and India, USA, Russia etc. But I thought we already did, puzzling.
Regarding the EU being corrupt, glass houses and stones spring to mind.
A thatcherite government as this one is, with it's big business friends and anti-worker ideologies being given free rein to roll back the country to Victorian times is to me much scarier than the hypothetical fairy tales about the future as portrayed by the likes of the mail.

Not really mate. I've already quoted the official stats that show more immigrants come to the UK from outside the EU than within. OK the Daily Fail are jubilant that a Tory Minister refused to slap down a 16 year of Grammar School kid on question time who claimed we could reclaim our own borders lol! It is skills shortages, as interpreted by big business, that is driving immigration!

 

[CityStu]

Not really mate. I've already quoted the official stats that show more immigrants come to the UK from outside the EU than within. OK the Daily Fail are jubilant that a Tory Minister refused to slap down a 16 year of Grammar School kid on question time who claimed we could reclaim our own borders lol! It is skills shortages, as interpreted by big business, that is driving immigration!

Depends what credence you give to the official stats. The ONS reluctantly released the number of NI numbers given to EU migrants last year and it was over 600k (compared to the 200k or so in the official figures)! Now, you do need an NI number for even temporary work so the NI figures aren't entirely correct, but I have serious doubts that 2/3 of all EU migrants wanting an NI number are only planning to be here temporarily.

FYI, the official figures are created by surveys at airports, ports, stations, etc. Very easy to say you're going to do one thing before going on to actually do another...

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Most definitely out.
All I've seen from the inners is scare-mongering. This idea that we would fall apart because we aren't part of the club is laughable. We trade due to us having stuff to sell and money to buy. If countries don't see fit to trade with us then they will lose out too. We are the 5th largest economy in spite of the EU. Had we joined the Euro (and remember the scaremongering that was done to persuade us to join) we'd be in such a worse position.
I've seen a letter from a former ambassador to Japan who stated that Japan would prefer is to stay in. Yet Japan doesn't have to be a part of an ever closer political union with China and south Korea in order to trade with the rest of the world. Can you imagine that political union.
I've read today that our science would suffer unless we remain as part of a European bloc. Science goes beyond borders. Graphene was first produced by 2 Russians at Manchester. Russia isn't part of the EU. This idea that we couldn't attract the best talents unless we are within the EU is silly. What we currently have is a system that means an unskilled worker can arrive from Europe unchallenged. A talented and highly qualified individual from the rest of the world still has to go through all the paper work to get here.
The idea that anyone opposed to mass immigration is somehow isolationist is quite sad. Mass immigration unchecked puts huge strains on our medical, educational and housing sectors. When we take charge of our borders then we can control the influx and have a good idea of what is needed. IF the rest of Europe can walk in at any time then we have no idea what is needed. We also get to put all immigrants through the same qualifying standards.
I am sick of seeing projects that were ''funded by the EU'' we paid that money to the EU in the first place. We pay in more than we get out. The EU hasn't signed off it's accounts. Can you imagine the uproar if the UK government couldn't vouch for it's spending? Remember these idiots move their parliament every 6 months at great expense without any reason for it.
I'm sick of seeing that many equality laws are there because of the EU, as if somehow we are incapable of being progressive without some unelected bureaucrat telling us to be. We managed to build an NHS and abolish legal slavery without the EU.
Owen Jones (amongst others) has stated that we need to be a part of the EU so we can enact democratic change within Europe. Cameron asked for nothing, got even less and they are pretty much saying that it won't last long anyway, if it even gets past Euro MPs. If people honestly believe that these people are going to give up their gravy train to bring about democratic change then I pity you.
TTIP should show you what the EU thinks of democracy and the people. The fact that we started with a trade agreement and ended up with ever more centralised European government should show you what these people think about democracy. The EU is more than likely as corrupt as FIFA. They are certainly heavily lobbied by people with vested interests.


My hope is that a Brexit will also wake up the rest of Europe and the political elite can be told exactly were to put their big government. They say it is a risk to leave.It is just as much a risk to stay. This isn't about xenophobia or isolationism. It's about seeing the bigger global picture. It's about less centralised governance. It's about democratic choice. Don't throw that away by sticking with the status quo and being frightened into staying.

Good effort mate but I thought I would point out a few points in case it helps:

- The people trying to tackle the risks of TTIP are often pro EU. The French have achieved safeguards for their film industry whilst out leaders have done fuck all for the NHS.

- How do we control our borders by leaving the EU when most our immigration comes from outside the EU.

- I don't think we would fall apart if we would leave the EU. The most in depth economic analyses say we would probably break even in the longer term - with only the first couple of years being detrimental.

- how about the scare stories from outers on here about terrorists flooding into the UK if we stay in the EU. The reality is that we are exporting international terrorism and our Government is doing too little to late about this. Thank goodness for our effective security services!

- there are valid points to be in and out of the EU. Being mates with Russia isn't the greatest argument for leaving the EU though (as they bomb civilians in Syria!)

- we make most of our own decisions in this country including bombing Libya and Iraq that has done untold damage! collaborating more with other countries would probably do us a power of good!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Depends what credence you give to the official stats. The ONS reluctantly released the number of NI numbers given to EU migrants last year and it was over 600k (compared to the 200k or so in the official figures)! Now, you do need an NI number for even temporary work so the NI figures aren't entirely correct, but I have serious doubts that 2/3 of all EU migrants wanting an NI number are only planning to be here temporarily.

FYI, the official figures are created by surveys at airports, ports, stations, etc. Very easy to say you're going to do one thing before going on to actually do another...

Resasonable points CityStu and possibly even more telling is that our Government has admitted in recent years that it doesn't really know how many immigrants come into this country. If we can't count the EU people then I doubt very much that we have a reliable way of counting the non EU migrants, even though they are supposed to be subject to greater scrutiny!

Either way the control out own borders mantra of the outers is misleading and manipulative!

 

[CityStu]

Resasonable points CityStu and possibly even more telling is that our Government has admitted in recent years that it doesn't really know how many immigrants come into this country. If we can't count the EU people then I doubt very much that we have a reliable way of counting the non EU migrants, even though they are supposed to be subject to greater scrutiny!

Either way the control out own borders mantra of the outers is misleading and manipulative!

I disagree. I think control is the key word. We might want to bring in exactly the same number of immigrants as we do now, but control would allow us to bring in required, skilled workers rather than unskilled workers who are unlikely to make net contributions to the economy.

If people are here without permission then we will have the right to return them to where they arrived from. It also allows us to vote in a party depending on the immigration policies they are outlining in their manifestos. Currently there is absolutely no way to plan as we could have 10k people arrive from the EU or we could have 100k.

 

[Monkfish]

Should probably have had an undecided on this vote, be interesting to see how many have not made their mind up yet, I'm probably in but by no means totally convinced. I would imagine most undecided voters will vote in, seems the out voters made their mind up long ago.

 

[hgblue]

Quick question - Cards on the table I will be voting in. If I am on the wrong side of the vote then I accept we go with the flow and I have to live with it and either stay in a UK thats outside the EU or - if I am still allowed to - move abroad to somewhere in the EU.

If I am on the winning side of the vote will all the outers agree to the same rules? i.e. thats it you lost shut up and live with it or will there be just endless campaigning to come out and complaining that we are in the EU? If that the plan then frankly can't see the point of a referendum.

Yep, all those people who passionately believe that Britain is better off outside the EU will all shut up and realise what a wonderful institution it is. Just like the Scots have.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I disagree. I think control is the key word. We might want to bring in exactly the same number of immigrants as we do now, but control would allow us to bring in required, skilled workers rather than unskilled workers who are unlikely to make net contributions to the economy.

If people are here without permission then we will have the right to return them to where they arrived from. It also allows us to vote in a party depending on the immigration policies they are outlining in their manifestos. Currently there is absolutely no way to plan as we could have 10k people arrive from the EU or we could have 100k.

You are right to point out that the rules on immigration for people from outnside the EU aren't working great. I know from my own work experience that many international doctors come here, sign up to employment agencies and rip off the NHS. Like wise there are many doctors from around the world who provide amazing patient care but we should have a framework of rules that works across the board.

I am not too sure about your second point as the EU doesn't govern our policy on refugees. Where people are economic migrants rather than refugees then many people won't come Here if there isn't work for them (and the minority of pisstakers who come for benefits will find the new rules less appealing). By the way most of the piss takers I come across tend to be white and British but maybe that is just my experience.

i am no do gooder either btw!

 

[bluethrunthru]

I think that depends on how our relationship with the EU continues. If we remain at the status quo then absolutely - it's the will of the people that we're part of the club. If we sit on a trajectory that pushes us ever closer to political union, or introduces a truly unacceptable TTIP policy, or starts to spread its branches into the Middle East, then I will begin to consider the validity of the referendum result.

I see what you are saying but errrr no........ the point is we have the vote and thats it - if we vote to stay in we are in and we continue to exist like we have done - think Maastricht and so on - what ever changes are made are agreed by our elected politicians on our behalf. If people don't like what they agree to then vote them out at the UK elections but if we vote to stay in then thats it people who lose have to accept they lost thats it - done. Alternatively if we vote to come out would they accept immediately the result is announced in "in" faction begin a capaign for another vote to get us to rejoin?

It could go on forever - what ever the result the "losers" have to shut the fuck up otherwise its a waste of time

 

[Helmet Cole]

Been keeping an eye on this poll/thread, and interestingly the % either way seem pretty consistent no matter what is happening in the news. Assuming this poll is fairly representative of public feeling and blues are not a bunch of oddballs it looks like a brexit may well be on the cards. I suppose this is why we are being subjected to scare stories in the media and now from the g20 - as if its anything to do with those cunts. I just hope which ever way it goes we get to make the decision based on facts rather than fear and hype.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Yep, all those people who passionately believe that Britain is better off outside the EU will all shut up and realise what a wonderful institution it is. Just like the Scots have.

wasn't asking and don't care about the Scots I just want whoever "loses" this vote to give it a fucking rest otherwise its a colossal waste of time.

 

[hgblue]

I see what you are saying but errrr no........ the point is we have the vote and thats it - if we vote to stay in we are in and we continue to exist like we have done - think Maastricht and so on - what ever changes are made are agreed by our elected politicians on our behalf. If people don't like what they agree to then vote them out at the UK elections but if we vote to stay in then thats it people who lose have to accept they lost thats it - done. Alternatively if we vote to come out would they accept immediately the result is announced in "in" faction begin a capaign for another vote to get us to rejoin?

It could go on forever - what ever the result the "losers" have to shut the fuck up otherwise its a waste of time

Do you remember the Scottish independence referendum? Have the SNP gone away? You fail to recognise that people don't change their deeply held convictions because they lose a vote, and my guess is that us outers are going to be doing a fair amount of 'I told you so' if Britain votes to stay in.

 

[CityStu]

You are right to point out that the rules on immigration for people from outnside the EU aren't working great. I know from my own work experience that many international doctors come here, sign up to employment agencies and rip off the NHS. Like wise there are many doctors from around the world who provide amazing patient care but we should have a framework of rules that works across the board.

I am not too sure about your second point as the EU doesn't govern our policy on refugees. Where people are economic migrants rather than refugees then many people won't come Here if there isn't work for them (and the minority of pisstakers who come for benefits will find the new rules less appealing). By the way most of the piss takers I come across tend to be white and British but maybe that is just my experience.

i am no do gooder either btw!

I think they would come here if there wasn't work though. By the end of this parliament our minimum wage will be £7.20 per hour which works out at just under €1,500 a month at full time. You would assume that cost of living would rise with that and thus the amount of benefits paid would also increase. Amongst current EU countries, that's a better wage than the average wage in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Poland, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Portugal, Malta, Greece and Slovenia. In short, they could work an average amount in their home country or sit in their pants in the UK and get 'paid' the same. They may well take a few years of hardship (sharing a room and having very low living costs) to reap those rewards.

I do agree that most benefit bums are UK citizens, but I don't see why we should keep the possibility open for EU residents to make the most of our very generous welfare system.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Been keeping an eye on this poll/thread, and interestingly the % either way seem pretty consistent no matter what is happening in the news. Assuming this poll is fairly representative of public feeling and blues are not a bunch of oddballs it looks like a brexit may well be on the cards. I suppose this is why we are being subjected to scare stories in the media and now from the g20 - as if its anything to do with those cunts. I just hope which ever way it goes we get to make the decision based on facts rather than fear and hype.

why do you say that the views of G20 finance ministers are scare stories? If we cannot take the views of the worlds senior governmental finance ministers into account in a debate on a possible Brexit because they are "scaremongering" then who's do we take into account? Those of the Mail and Telegraph when they warn of us being overrun by immigrants taking our jobs and bankrupting our NHS?

The pound has tanked recently underfears of the effect of a Brexit - is that scaremongering too? World markets are in the pay of pro EU supporters too? I'll take my advices off people I think will know what they are looking at TBH

 

[bluethrunthru]

Do you remember the Scottish independence referendum? Have the SNP gone away? You fail to recognise that people don't change their deeply held convictions because they lose a vote, and my guess is that us outers are going to be doing a fair amount of 'I told you so' if Britain votes to stay in.

So we may as well not bother then? That or us "inners" can start a UK In Europe Party the day after we "lose" so we can say "we told you so " too? This is the problem with Call Me Dave's panic stricken promise to do this to fend off UKIP a couple of years ago - instead of having a proper debate THEN calling a vote he has been bounced into it.

If my side lose then so be it - I am just a soft **** who believes in the democratic process I guess............

 

[CityStu]

I see what you are saying but errrr no........ the point is we have the vote and thats it - if we vote to stay in we are in and we continue to exist like we have done - think Maastricht and so on - what ever changes are made are agreed by our elected politicians on our behalf. If people don't like what they agree to then vote them out at the UK elections but if we vote to stay in then thats it people who lose have to accept they lost thats it - done. Alternatively if we vote to come out would they accept immediately the result is announced in "in" faction begin a capaign for another vote to get us to rejoin?

It could go on forever - what ever the result the "losers" have to shut the fuck up otherwise its a waste of time

So even if it gets to the point that the UK is dissolved as a country and we become a state in a United Europe (a la the USA), you would not support the right of the British people to have a referendum on surrendering that amount of sovereignty?

I would certainly accept a party standing in the GE with a manifesto policy of having a referendum to return us into the EU. I just can't see them being very popular if a majority have just taken us out of the EU.

 

[CityStu]

why do you say that the views of G20 finance ministers are scare stories? If we cannot take the views of the worlds senior governmental finance ministers into account in a debate on a possible Brexit because they are "scaremongering" then who's do we take into account? Those of the Mail and Telegraph when they warn of us being overrun by immigrants taking our jobs and bankrupting our NHS?

The pound has tanked recently underfears of the effect of a Brexit - is that scaremongering too? World markets are in the pay of pro EU supporters too? I'll take my advices off people I think will know what they are looking at TBH

I take the opinion of people who don't have a vested interest in the UK being in the EU. I don't think the finance ministers of France or Italy are keen on losing a cash cow like the UK from the EU and I doubt Germany are going to be happy being the only remaining cash cow either.

Why is the pound dropping a bad thing - it is good for exports. And it's not in fear of Brexit - it's over the uncertainty of whether the UK will remain in the EU or not. I imagine it will rise again immediately after the referendum regardless of the direction of the vote. It also didn't drop as far as the Euro did! Oh, and the FTSE rose with speculation that we might be considering leaving - it's not world markets, it's one currency.