Well I guess we could vote English mps out if we didn't like them. Not sure given the dilution of our vote that's something we are able to do in the Eu even though it's accepted that 60 percent of laws now come from the Eu. Sovereignty and Democracy seem overrated nowadays.Well the first one is just wrong. The second is more debateable. Some (we can debate how many) Japanese and other businesses which have invested in the UK because it's in the EU, will surely decamp elsewhere if we are no longer in it. So it comes down to whether the loss of revenue and jobs that will result in our more restricted trade with the EU, is more than compensated for by increased trade with other nations. And if it that's true, whether the gains are worth the upheaval and risk. In my judgement, they are probably not. I think we'd be worse off - perhaps significantly worse off - for years and for no real gain other than some romantic idea of "getting our freedom back", which is not for me a compelling argument.
We - you and I - don't have any freedom anyway. We vote for who and what we like and then politicians and policies get dumped on us whether we voted for them or not. I don't really see much advantage in having some English MP or law I don't want instead of an EU one.
So if we don't get a trade deal with Europe..... what happens next?I think the most likely outcome is that we would not have an EU trade deal. I can't see any circumstances where the leaders of a successful Out campaign would agree to the UK then being bound by the same terms that compelled us to leave. Equally, I cannot see the EU agreeing to trade deal without most of those conditions. I think these differences would be irreconcilable and we'd basically have to continue without a deal for probably the next decade at least.
Of course that doesn't mean we were unable to trade with the EU, but it would mean that UK goods and services were subject to import duty.
So, nearly 60 pages on - still no answers? Just some scare stories about trade agreements. LolI'm still undecided about which way to vote, but I tell you something.... every single argument I've heard from the 'In' campaign is actually a negative argument about what will happen should we leave.
It's well known that being negative (even if you're right) can turn people against your point of view (it's partly due to this that the Scotland vote was so much closer than people originally thought it would be) so I really do feel that the negative 'In' campaign is being counter-productive and could contribute to an 'Out' vote.
So, as an undecided voter, I've got a question for those who definitely want to remain in the EU...
Can I have some positives about what will happen should we vote to stay in the EU? If you can, I'd like specifics about what will improve for us.
If I see any negatives in the answer I'll just ignore it :-)
Well I guess we could vote English mps out if we didn't like them. Not sure given the dilution of our vote that's something we are able to do in the Eu even though it's accepted that 60 percent of laws now come from the Eu. Sovereignty and Democracy seem overrated nowadays.
Well I guess we could vote English mps out if we didn't like them. Not sure given the dilution of our vote that's something we are able to do in the Eu even though it's accepted that 60 percent of laws now come from the Eu. Sovereignty and Democracy seem overrated nowadays.
If I'm right the EU will want to agree a trade deal asap, if not WTO rules apply. Either outcome is fine by me.The point being that you've changed your tune from the "of course we'll be able to agree a trade deal" to "we don't need a trade deal".
An that just sums it up from the Remainians, nothing but bullshit and scare stories,
There is our trade with the EU, except its declining and has been since 1999 an they make nothing we can not get cheaper elsewhere.
There will be a trade war, except we are not the ones who will lose out at a ratio of 2-1 while out trade with the rest of the world is growing year on year.
There is the benefits of uncontrolled migration, but that begs the question why are the EU giving Turkey three billion a year plus visa free travel if its such a f*cking great benefit.
Greater "Safety" in having an EU army, just what you f*cking need when having a row, backup supplied by France an Italy.
Lets here the positives of staying in an organisation famed for its corruption and incompetence, how its such a stable platform to base our and our children s future on at a time when its lurching from crisis to crisis and fast becoming politically unstable.
Shall we discount the promises made an broken since the last referendum and happily march into the fully federalized EU that awaits.
Oh please SLS, do tell us all those lovely positives
Our trade with the EU? 44% of our exports. Their exports to us? 16%. So our economy is less impacted than theirs? Oh, I seeeeeeee.
Forget about BMW, Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Citroen, Renault, Fiat, Ferrari. And champagne and brie and camembert. And plum tomatoes and tulips and everything else.
But we dont have to think about that because they have no need to sell to us do they ?, no trade agreement ;0)
There you go again with that special kind of mummies little snowflake bullshite of using % that hide the truth, do we run a surplice or a deficit with the EU ?, and if so at what ratio ?
Demos - the people. Members of the House of Skunks don't give a shit for the people the second they have been installed in their Westminster offices and they've found their way to the Expenses Officer..
The day after an exit vote we become their biggest export market and we will simply become another one of many countries who export and import goods to and from the EU whilst being an independent country.WTF are you on about? We run a deficit (OF FUCKING COURSE). But what on earth is the point of comparing absolutes when the RELATIVE importance to who you are dealing with is what matters.
If I steal £100 off a poor man in the street, is more painful to him than if I steal £200 from Elton fucking John?. I might be stealing 10% of the poor man's wealth and 0.00001% of Mr John's. So you CANNOT argue that the £200 is more damaging because it's more than £100. No-one could be so stupid as to argue that.
Our EU exports are 44% of our export business. Their exports to the UK are 16% of theirs. 44 is bigger than 16. We need them more than they need us. How fucking hard is this? It's like trying to talk to a cat sometimes on here.
I think the second part of your arguement is somewhat flawed, if you don't mind me saying so.WTF are you on about? We run a deficit (OF FUCKING COURSE). But what on earth is the point of comparing absolutes when the RELATIVE importance to who you are dealing with is what matters.
If I steal £100 off a poor man in the street, is more painful to him than if I steal £200 from Elton fucking John?. I might be stealing 10% of the poor man's wealth and 0.00001% of Mr John's. So you CANNOT argue that the £200 is more damaging because it's more than £100. No-one could be so stupid as to argue that.
Our EU exports are 44% of our export business. Their exports to the UK are 16% of theirs. 44 is bigger than 16. We need them more than they need us. How fucking hard is this? It's like trying to talk to a cat sometimes on here.
I think the second part of your arguement is somewhat flawed, if you don't mind me saying so.
The values do matter in these circumstances. Our percentage value is particular to us as is the EU's to them. It is entirely possible we could absorb a 44% drop in exports, particularly if dropping exporting to the EU meant we were free to and had opportunity to exploit other global markets which we currently do not have access to because we are constrained by the EU. The EU however may struggle to drop their exports by 16% with no alternative markets available to them to exploit.
Can you source these figures and percentages and provide absolute values?
I should add that I think this all a pretty pointless arguement in any case as we all know that in five years time, whether we vote in or out on June 23rd, we will still be buying VW, Mercedes and BMW cars... market forces will see to that. Yes if we vote to leave, there may have to be financial and costing adjustments to accommodate any additional tariffs but I'm guessing that will be a two way street...
You really are stupid. I can get to know my Mep as closely as I want to Christ I can even marry the fooker but the uk meps are completely diluted by the 100s of other meps from many other states with different issues and economic progression to us. In any event most of the laws coming from the Eu are enacted by the unelected Eurocrats and not even the meps.Demos - the people. Members of the House of Skunks don't give a shit for the people the second they have been installed in their Westminster offices and they've found their way to the Expenses Officer..
You really are stupid. I can get to know my Mep as closely as I want to Christ I can even marry the fooker but the uk meps are completely diluted by the 100s of other meps from many other states with different issues and economic progression to us. In any event most of the laws coming from the Eu are enacted by the unelected Eurocrats and not even the meps.
As far as the uk is concerned the laws that are pushed on us from the Eu we have to take whether we like it or not, this referendum at least gives us chance to change that.
Sorry that response was for mr chips and his black and white approach to the debate.Demos - the people. Members of the House of Skunks don't give a shit for the people the second they have been installed in their Westminster offices and they've found their way to the Expenses Officer..