EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

....and if we didn't pay?

If you don't pay you don't play

And no inner has put together a cogent positive set of reasons for staying in. You're like a group of scared old women worrying about ever going outside in case something bad happens, despite the house you're in being on fire.

And the more you repeat ad nauseum, the more the BM vote increases towards the out vote.

Thank fuck you're not running the IN campaign.

If I was running things there would be no campaign we would be spending time looking for real solutions to real problems . This exercise in blame to avoid hard discussions is doing a huge disservice to everyone. Little and Large may as well be running the campaigns they are both jokes

 

[blueonblue]

If I was running things there would be no campaign we would be spending time looking for real solutions to real problems .

The solutions to the real problems facing this country are all "Not allowed" while we remain in the EU.

The problem of a shortage of jobs and wages/working conditions being undermined by floods of cheap migrant labour can not be properly addressed without control of our own borders, nor can any real attempt to tackle the huge benefit bill we pay out every year to our own people sat on the dole.
The Heath/education systems are near to breaking point for the same reason as above, nor can a way out be planned when you have no idea how many people will arrive at any given time.

Shortage of housing same again, you can hold your breath till your blue in the face but it will not change the reality.

We can never find any solutions while we do not have sovereignty over our own destiny.

 

[lancs blue]

The solutions to the real problems facing this country are all "Not allowed" while we remain in the EU.

The problem of a shortage of jobs and wages/working conditions being undermined by floods of cheap migrant labour can not be properly addressed without control of our own borders, nor can any real attempt to tackle the huge benefit bill we pay out every year to our own people sat on the dole.
The Heath/education systems are near to breaking point for the same reason as above, nor can a way out be planned when you have no idea how many people will arrive at any given time.

Shortage of housing same again, you can hold your breath till your blue in the face but it will not change the reality.

We can never find any solutions while we do not have sovereignty over our own destiny.

Long term we need MORE migrants not fewer, because of the age demographics in the indigenous population. In fact even in the short term the NHS has just "discovered" that it over-estimated staff numbers by 70,000 so even with all the immigrants who work in it the NHS is chronically understaffed. Where are the queues of local people trying to fill these posts??

 

[EalingBlue2]

The solutions to the real problems facing this country are all "Not allowed" while we remain in the EU.

The problem of a shortage of jobs and wages/working conditions being undermined by floods of cheap migrant labour can not be properly addressed without control of our own borders, nor can any real attempt to tackle the huge benefit bill we pay out every year to our own people sat on the dole.
The Heath/education systems are near to breaking point for the same reason as above, nor can a way out be planned when you have no idea how many people will arrive at any given time.

Shortage of housing same again, you can hold your breath till your blue in the face but it will not change the reality.

We can never find any solutions while we do not have sovereignty over our own destiny.

Respect for answering! Though I see the problem differently. You are very much talking about the symptoms though in my view not the core. I agree about the creaking services but would actually not blame immigration I would blame consumerism. Too many people today believe in consuming today rather than adequately dealing with the future and governments are happy to propagate a Ponzi scheme rather than actually deal with it.

Studies show immigration holding in check the ageing population, providing GDP growth and holding together funding of NHS and education. Without immigration growth would be gone in the economy and the demographics would kill so stopping immigration is not a solution. The only real solution is to either agree as a country that universal healthcare and education is history (which would be dreadful in my eyes) or accept as a country that a few sports cars, DVD players etc are going to have to be sacrificed to get the revenue in that can pay for the exponentially increasing cost of age. Immigration has been holding things together short term and has been used cynically and dishonestly by governments. To actually try and change people's expectations and short term gratification for the long term good of society though is one of the hardest things to do. It is very easy to get a person to blame someone else for their problems it is very hard to get them to accept their expectations are part of the issue.

I guess my question was almost more broad, long term what is Britain going to do better and cheaper than anyone else so that Britain can grow economically and find the ageing growing population and find a niche in the world. None of the parties have any idea, Tories think destroying socialised medicine and taking away the rights and protections of the population is an answer (it isn't), labour thinks going back in time to a different world demographically is the answer and it isn't . Both sides of politics are looking only for people to blame be that Europe or dole bludgers , immigrants , big business or fat bankers and all of it is a pathetic attempt at a blame game. Seems to me the whole in out vote is much the same.

What is needed is a really honest discussion of what the British populations collective view is on what is expected for education, health and welfare and what tax etc has to be paid to it for that. A far more worthy and important referenda than Europe and far more impactful. Then some areas of future long term competitive advantage and strategy need to be identified and policy tailored towards them, education boosted to support them, investment tailored towards them etc

Political Short termism is destroying much of the west and was the whole drive behind the economic collapse and is a big part, along with young growing populations especially in the middle class as to why Asia is the growth engine of the world

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Out and fuck of Turkey !
Bosporus my arse !

 

[blueonblue]

You constantly ignore the overwhelming difference between immigration, which can be a good thing IF you can bring in the people that will improve things, and unfettered floods of financial migrants that just add to the already existing problems.
We unfortunately already have plenty of unskilled workers, to allow in more who will undercut wages while pushing up the benefits bill to pay out dole money is madness.

We are not dependent on the EU for jobs or anything else, they only buy a small % of what we make yet want to dictate every thing from laws to how we empty the f*cking bins, we buy more from them an pay more than world market price for the privilege.

The nine BILLION or so we save every year not being part of their little gang invested into British industry & infrastructure would transform this country, the politicians will be forced into this by a public long sick to the back teeth of there antics.

We regain our fishing grounds, control of our agriculture, justice system, borders , an we get to decide how we do things like empty the f*cking bins.

The EU is not just building up trouble for the very near future, it IS the ponzi scheme as Greece already found out, you ask about the uncertainty of exit, I say there is far more uncertainty staying tied into this mess, Hungary & Austria have defied the EU an closed their border, Poland has elected a right wing government who are refusing to take any migrants, meanwhile the EU do a deal of paying Turkey six billion euro`s an speeding up full integration into the EU for them in return for blocking a route for migrant ( Opening the door for 77million Turks).

 

[EalingBlue2]

You constantly ignore the overwhelming difference between immigration, which can be a good thing IF you can bring in the people that will improve things, and unfettered floods of financial migrants that just add to the already existing problems.
We unfortunately already have plenty of unskilled workers, to allow in more who will undercut wages while pushing up the benefits bill to pay out dole money is madness.

We are not dependent on the EU for jobs or anything else, they only buy a small % of what we make yet want to dictate every thing from laws to how we empty the f*cking bins, we buy more from them an pay more than world market price for the privilege.

The nine BILLION or so we save every year not being part of their little gang invested into British industry & infrastructure would transform this country, the politicians will be forced into this by a public long sick to the back teeth of there antics.

We regain our fishing grounds, control of our agriculture, justice system, borders , an we get to decide how we do things like empty the f*cking bins.

The EU is not just building up trouble for the very near future, it IS the ponzi scheme as Greece already found out, you ask about the uncertainty of exit, I say there is far more uncertainty staying tied into this mess, Hungary & Austria have defied the EU an closed their border, Poland has elected a right wing government who are refusing to take any migrants, meanwhile the EU do a deal of paying Turkey six billion euro`s an speeding up full integration into the EU for them in return for blocking a route for migrant ( Opening the door for 77million Turks).

The whole of the western world is a Ponzi scheme, the UK has a huge Ponzi scheme behind it and no idea or strategy to get out. In European terms there are many much worse but mainly because they have higher expectations of what the state should provide.

So we regain fishing grounds with no fish, we regain agriculture with high input costs that can't globally compete? We get out justice system back - to do What reduce our human rights, take away protection of workers and allow us to become even more exploited than today?

Where I do agree is Turkey shouldn't be in the EU and ideally not in NATO with the current regime but that's a separate issue.

I also think to try and blame the EU for this immigration situation is a bloody cheek. Britain and France hold nearly all the responsibility European wise for the messes in the Middle East, North Africa, Aghanistan etc. The idea that we along with The US and France can help absolutely screw up large chunks of the world and then leave the problems for other countries like Greece who had nothing to do with it is appalling. It is the ultimate 21st century behaviour IE taking no responsibility for actions and behaving like the nation equivalent of a Hoodie.

Also I am sad to tell you 9 billion is chicken feed - it won't transform anything - it won't even make a noticeable difference. At best it could cover the difference between health cost increase % and CPI for a few years or increase welfare payments by 3% in a one off boost. Or to put it another way it could be used to pay off each year 0.6% of government debt , which is about a quarter of the amount spent on interest and that at a time of historically minute interest rates . It is like someone knocking a few hundred quid off the total owed balance on the average mortgage not zero but pretty irellevant. Now i would rather have a couple of hundred quid than the bank but if in return I had to take responsibility of a whole lot of new areas and add cost elsewhere I am not sure it'd be worth it for that

 

[cibaman]

The other countries have chosen a path of political and monetary union/free movement of labour. Presumably because they think these things are a good idea. So if not being part of this project is seen as being such a bad idea by the others then we should be able to respectfully decline to be part of it without this causing any problems. Unless of course they know that a UK freed from the chains of excessive regulation and costly directives would prosper?

They would certainly be very worried that the UK would prosper outside of the EU. And quite clearly if the UK escaped all of its obligations to the EU, didn't have to contribute to the budget, didn't have to follow the directives, didn't have to take EU workers, but still traded as before, then clearly the UK should be better off. Its all upside, no downside. I would definitely vote for that, if I thought it would happen.

 

[EalingBlue2]

They would certainly be very worried that the UK would prosper outside of the EU. And quite clearly if the UK escaped all of its obligations to the EU, didn't have to contribute to the budget, didn't have to follow the directives, didn't have to take EU workers, but still traded as before, then clearly the UK should be better off. Its all upside, no downside. I would definitely vote for that, if I thought it would happen.

If that's the case they May as well write off the EU portion of the 1.6 trillion national debt and pay in cash all they owe us as well if we're playing fantasy future?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

@lancs blue, Dont forget the whole regeneration of Liverpool ( and Glasgow ) that stemmed from the EU Capitol of culture grant, 2 major cities in the UK that have gained massively from being part of the EU, and the economic booms of those 2 cities will have had a decent impact on the income of the country in general.

If the EU had decided to forcibly relocate the whole Liverpool population to France, every fucker would be voting to stay in.