EU referendum

[Chippy_boy]

I don't disagree that we seem to be banging our heads against a brick wall when dealing with the EU - sometimes, possibly oftentimes. I don't think that's in dispute and at the end of the day, If people thing it's beyond all hope, then there is no option but to vote out.

FYI, 88% of the time we vote FOR whatever is being proposed by the EU. Now you could turn it around and say that means 12% of the time we oppose whatever it was.

What percentage of the time do you think our opposition parties vote against a government proposal? Honestly I don't know the answer to that, but I would imagine it's a damned sight higher than 12%, and if so, that would imply that there is more concensus between what the UK wants compared to what the EU wants, than we have in our OWN country. Perhaps we should just break up the UK?

 

[FanchesterCity]

This feels like the nuclear option based on scary predictions.

Just because Juncker says he wants an army (and I don't know what he said and in what language), I don't believe there's any chance of an EU army within 25 years, or that the euro will be forced on us.

Not a bloody chance of an 'army' (if he genuinely meant a military one). Poor term to use though is he said actually said 'army'.

Whilst the war is in the past and we've moved on, it's not been forgotten. There's not a single nation in the EU that doesn't let it cross their mind when Germany wants to exert power (which is perfectly normal for them to do, just as we or the French try to). But when it's Germany - everybody secretly lets it cross their minds, and they know it too!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

With small and medium-sized firms freed from EU regulation, there could be a jobs boom. More than 90% of the UK economy is not involved in trade with the EU...yet still bears the burden of these rules...this comes from the Bruges Group.

The Eurosceptic think tank claims pulling out of the EU but staying in the EEA would create 1 million jobs...hardly bad for business

That's not got the strongest base for an argument.

COULD.

"Eurosceptic think tank claims"

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

Perhaps we should just break up the UK?

Oh that old chestnut

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

That's not got the strongest base for an argument.

COULD.

"Eurosceptic think tank claims"

You missed out the actual fact though eh? 90% of UK business has no dealings with the EU whatsoever

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Not a bloody chance of an 'army' (if he genuinely meant a military one). Poor term to use though is he said actually said 'army'.

Whilst the war is in the past and we've moved on, it's not been forgotten. There's not a single nation in the EU that doesn't let it cross their mind when Germany wants to exert power (which is perfectly normal for them to do, just as we or the French try to). But when it's Germany - everybody secretly lets it cross their minds, and they know it too!

I suspect they feel the same about the UK, mind. Our leaders do have a habit of going and lecturing them on why they're wrong, being unable domestically to admit that the Europeans might have a point on occasion.

 

[EalingBlue2]

No, it's not likely. It is in fact a cast iron certainty. We won't have a trade agreement without tariffs. 100.000000% certainty. Unless you think Boris will agree to free movement of labour, working time directive and supremecy of the European Courts? No, thought not.



No, but it's also irrelevant. Because (a) the numbers will probably decline as Europe moves into growth and (b) if we leave we won't be doing anything about it anyway.



Yes, as they have continued to do for the past 10 years+



Definitely not if we leave. It will decline MUCH, MUCH faster if we leave.



We do already. We control virtually every single thing in this country that matters. What do you think are the MOST important things to people in this country, the things that are fought over and over which general elections are won and lost every 5 years? The things that REALLY matter?

The NHS
Schools & education
Jobs & employment
Defence, the armed forces and security
The policce
Welfare
Taxes
The economy, how well it's doing, money supply and fiscal policies etc
The environment

Can you think of anything else? Off the top of my head that's about it and we control ALL of these things. We don't need to "take back control", we already have it.

Fair play you gave that far more patience and respect than I think it deserved - you are a better man than me.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

You missed out the actual fact though eh? 90% of UK business has no dealings with the EU whatsoever

I didn't miss it out. I challenged the basis of the argument.

Do you have an economic value on that 90%? Is that 50% of GDP? 20%? What percentage of workforce?

If all 90% are corner shops employing 5 people, it's not terribly significant on the big economic picture.

 

[blueonblue]

Is it likely that our concerns about immigration and governance within the EU (political and social issues) is going to result in a 'Leave' vote? - quite possibly
Is that decision to leave then going to hinder (not end) 50% of our international trade - yes
Is the 'future prosperity' we depend on dependant on the success of those businesses (not the governments) - yes

So why would we hinder those businesses we are relying on for prosperity?

The word hinder makes your post far more credible that most of the nonsense from the remainians, and while it is a hindrance to shift direction towards other markets from an excising one it is one that has been declining for years, so sooner or later we have to look elsewhere, it makes far more sense to look at increasing trade outside the EU where our exports have been increasing.

The second point to hider is by how much, will it not be offset by what we have to pay to be in this "Free trade" club?, and the freedoms to control political decisions is not one that any other future trading partner would demand as part of any trade agreement, just think about how ridiculous that sounds, "In order to trade with us you have to let us make your laws".

 

[EalingBlue2]

You missed out the actual fact though eh? 90% of UK business has no dealings with the EU whatsoever

Firstly the brexit stat is 90% don't export to the EU but that's not remarkable because The vast majority of British businesses don't export to anyone. Nearly all businesses do deal with the EU as very few of any businesses including window cleaners or Cafes don't have some inputs coming from the EU. The parroting of this 90% stat is amazing considering it was so incorrect

 

[EalingBlue2]

I didn't miss it out. I challenged the basis of the argument.

Do you have an economic value on that 90%? Is that 50% of GDP? 20%? What percentage of workforce?

If all 90% are corner shops employing 5 people, it's not terribly significant on the big economic picture.

It's not real it's an export stat, it is based on number of businesses not turnover and it includes businesses that don't export to anyone

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

I didn't miss it out. I challenged the basis of the argument.

Do you have an economic value on that 90%? Is that 50% of GDP? 20%? What percentage of workforce?

If all 90% are corner shops employing 5 people, it's not terribly significant on the big economic picture.

What does it matter? Those who do trade with Europe will still be able to form bi-lateral trade agreements...along with fast-growing export markets such as China, Singapore, Brazil, Russia and India through the World Trade Organisation...it's not going to crash and burn...we were strong before the EU/EEC...we will still be strong if we leave

 

[Monkfish]

With small and medium-sized firms freed from EU regulation, there could be a jobs boom. More than 90% of the UK economy is not involved in trade with the EU...yet still bears the burden of these rules...this comes from the Bruges Group.

The Eurosceptic think tank claims pulling out of the EU but staying in the EEA would create 1 million jobs...hardly bad for business

Good on the Bruges group, if thinking something would create jobs we'd be laughing. Unfortunately everyone who has looked at the potential outcome isn't seeing it the same way. Maybe all these experts are wrong and a few career MP's are correct. Either way the career MP's will be ok.

 

[FanchesterCity]

FYI, 88% of the time we vote FOR whatever is being proposed by the EU. Now you could turn it around and say that means 12% of the time we oppose whatever it was.

What percentage of the time do you think our opposition parties vote against a government proposal? Honestly I don't know the answer to that, but I would imagine it's a damned sight higher than 12%, and if so, that would imply that there is more concensus between what the UK wants compared to what the EU wants, than we have in our OWN country. Perhaps we should just break up the UK?

I can live with it (not always winning in a democracy). I'm saying that for those who can't, or IF we as a nation can't live with it and the other side won't budge, then there's no option. But, don't paint that option as 'preferred' and 'it's going to lose the shackles and lead to prosperity'! Tell it like it really is - it's going to be a painful but necessary withdrawal.

I'm with the 'ins'

I think the EU does need some serious reform, and I am worried that if we vote 'in' the EU might see it as a 'win' for them, and carry on. But I hope they'll see it as the most clear warning they've ever had and be more open to change. We aren't the only nation who could teeter on the edge of pulling out, and they know it.
If people really do value the sovereignty of our laws, and really do value immigration control above all else, then so be it. But I reckon they'll value their jobs more. They just don't appreciate how at risk some (not all) are.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Not a bloody chance of an 'army' (if he genuinely meant a military one). Poor term to use though is he said actually said 'army'.

Whilst the war is in the past and we've moved on, it's not been forgotten. There's not a single nation in the EU that doesn't let it cross their mind when Germany wants to exert power (which is perfectly normal for them to do, just as we or the French try to). But when it's Germany - everybody secretly lets it cross their minds, and they know it too!

Meanwhile wr would happily go to war to protect turkey which is what NATO requires us to do and that could happily Be under the overall command of someone from far further away and far more removed from our values than Germany. I am more worried about going to war to protect Erdogan under the command of a Trump nominated general which could happen in 12 months time than what junker sees 2 decades down the road

 

[The perfect fumble]

we were strong before the EU/EEC...we will still be strong if we leave

You must be older than I thought...

 

[FanchesterCity]

What does it matter? Those who do trade with Europe will still be able to form bi-lateral trade agreements...along with fast-growing export markets such as China, Singapore, Brazil, Russia and India through the World Trade Organisation...it's not going to crash and burn...we were strong before the EU/EEC...we will still be strong if we leave

That is and never was questioned (the ability to carry on trading) it's about how integrated we currently are within the EU market (VERY heavily) and how every last one of our businesses that are trading with the EU are doing so on lesser or zero tariffs, easier access (legally and physically) and a standard set of parameters to work in. Most of those business CAN adapt to us being outside of the EU, but the change will cost (just to implement a change) and the ongoing trade costs will increase - because we're outside of the EU. It doesn't mean firms will go bust, but it will affect their margins, and that means less jobs, or increased prices.

There's no blockade being created, nobody's stopping trade - but outside the EU we have to jump over a few hurdles (like everybody else does), and within it, those hurdles are removed. The jobs we currently have are based on no hurdles in the way.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Meanwhile wr would happily go to war to protect turkey which is what NATO requires us to do and that could happily Be under the overall command of someone from far further away and far more removed from our values than Germany. I am more worried about going to war to protect Erdogan under the command of a Trump nominated general which could happen in 12 months time than what junker sees 2 decades down the road

That would be funny if it weren't worringly possible (Trump calling the shots).

 

[Chippy_boy]

The word hinder makes your post far more credible that most of the nonsense from the remainians, and while it is a hindrance to shift direction towards other markets from an excising one it is one that has been declining for years, so sooner or later we have to look elsewhere, it makes far more sense to look at increasing trade outside the EU where our exports have been increasing.

The second point to hider is by how much, will it not be offset by what we have to pay to be in this "Free trade" club?, and the freedoms to control political decisions is not one that any other future trading partner would demand as part of any trade agreement, just think about how ridiculous that sounds, "In order to trade with us you have to let us make your laws".

HInder is a good word. No-one is saying "eliminate". But hinderance is not a "good thing" is it.

And regards your other points, our trade with the rest of the world has been increasing WHILST WE ARE IN THE EU. The Leavers would have you believe that we are in some way cut off from the rest of the world whilst we are in the EU and that patently is not the case. The question that you need to ask yourself is how, why and by how much would our trade with the rest of the world be IMPROVED were we to be outside the EU? Why is it that we would inherently make more profitable deals? And how can we be sure we'd gain enough to offset the loss of trade with the EU? I think this is a flaky proposition at best.

And about making our laws, so what? The laws that are made (a) we have a vote on, (b) we agree with 88% of the time, (c) are generally good for workers and citizens rights, the environment and everything else.

The Leavers keep going on about how the EU tells *US* what we can and can't do. Who's the "us"? When's the last time you went to Tesco or to the home game against Everton and thought, "that damned EU, ruining my life again"??? I never think it. Seriously, have a sit down and a think about how the EU affects YOU in any materially bad way. If it really is terrible for you then fair enough, I get it. But my suspicion is that for many of the people of the xenophobic anti-european bandwagon, they aren't negatively impacted by anything the EU does at all.

The EU is an irrelevance in my day to day life. Mildly annoying from time to time is about as terrible as it gets.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Now you are really confusing me, you are passionate about this referendum but you appear to know nothing about it. Surely you have read enough to know the 350 figure is nonsense? Surely you know we do not 'pay in' and 'get back' by now? Surely you know the money never leaves the exchequer? Surely?

You just teasing me again Beej?

Wouldn't waste my time in you MF. If you annot read all that I write and choose to quote sections then fine, I'm sure you feel good on it. Anyway, like I said, you say nothing as to the benefits of staying in, you only can resort to finding fault, incorrectly in this case, with others' arguements.

You are like the little brat in the supermarket, forever wanting and whinging and crying. Just like I tolerate them I tolerate you - even with your disrespectful views about our servicemen.... So as you were!