Old 'Spade Face' has had a dig in the past. :-)
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Old 'Spade Face' has had a dig in the past. :-)
Lancet Fluke
Well-Known Member
Good post. I was going to come on here and give my two pennies worth but ended up thinking it was going to end up being soooo long and I just couldn't be bothered. Also I knew most people wouldn't have bothered reading it anyway. You've covered a fair few of the things I would have said and you've put it much better than I ever would, I certainly wouldn't have been up to using the word "opprobrium". :) The thing that worries me is how much of our defensive problems look a problem with the system than the personnel. Too many men thrown forward, no protection for the defenders who are often high up the pitch with loads of space in behind them. I get the feeling we could keep throwing money at new defenders forever but if they're still going to be horribly exposed by our inability (or is it a lack of inclination) to properly deal with teams who set up like Everton did then the same thing will just keep on happening, just with a different 40 or 50 million quid centre half looking the fool. After our first Prem title, Mancini had the problem of most opponents parking the bus, he came in for a lot of flack on here for still playing holding midfielders and still keeping us fairly rigid and well organised at the back. I think we are now seeing why he did that because actually just throwing everyone forward doesn't necessarily increase the chances of you scoring against a parked bus team but it does leave you much more vulnerable to the counter attack. In matches like yesterday's, you're often knackered if you concede the first goal but we do it so often in those circumstances. It makes some sense to think, don't get carried away, no need to over-commit, don't concede, we will have lots of possession around their box and all we need is one break and we've won. As it is we leave ourselves in situations where we need to score 2, 3, 4 goals against a parked bus which is usually nigh on impossible. Pellegrini was the same and I always saw it as either a lack of respect for the opposition and their tactics or just a horrendous stubbornness. Maybe I'm being unfair, it's probably a lot more complicated than that.You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
Blumers Bloomers
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 25 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 7,079
Good post. However, that does not change the fact that we got this Bravo:
rather than the one that actually makes saves.
That's got nothing to do with the way Pep implements his style and philosophy. And I could pull out plenty of clips of Joe Hart mistakes but that's not what we're talking about. The system has already gone wrong in three key areas before the ball gets to Bravo.
Fed up of seeing that gormless look when we've conceded!
uwe rosler 28
Well-Known Member
Some players just are not good enough for us and peps system and style out are bravo doesn't make saves! Clichy cant pass zabba to old for midfield sterling a nervous wreck and I'm not sure he will ever be good enough inhenacho not good enough we either need to change shape or style to pep has his players! Only sagna can come out of yesterday with any credit!
PannickAtTheDisco
Well-Known Member
I think yesterday may be the final straw for Pep. I think after Leicester he agreed to compromise to a system the players felt more comfortable with because they weren't getting his preferred style quick enough. Now they've given up and thrown in the towel on their terms I think he will politely tell some of them to go fuck themselves, and focus on doing his thing with the few players he wants to keep next season.
Old 'Spade Face' has had a dig in the past. :-)
Was that an accidental pun?
OB1
Well-Known Member
There's no doubt that they're good buys.
But it seems Sane and Sterling both favour the right. If Silva or De Bruyne are used wide, they're both more effective on the right and Navas can only play on the right.
We have signed good players but yesterday we had £60 million of right wingers on the bench. No left sided attacker, no centre back and Delph and a kid to cover a midfield with just YaYa and a washed right back in it.
Sane is left footed. Pep had him purchased to play (primarily) on the left. He may have been used as an inverted (right) winger at his last club but he's a kid who can learn to play on his natural side.
IcriedwhenTueartleft
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2 May 2011
- Messages
- 12,741
You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
Very well said and very fair comment. Of course, we all hope that things will pick up and that the guys in charge know what they are doing.
OB1
Well-Known Member
You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
Really not got time to give a long answer.
I'm not going to excuse Pep for the mistakes he has and surely will make. I don't doubt though he would agree that you need to play in a variety of ways; albeit following a basic philosophy. What Pep is likely to tell you, imo, because he has done in his pressers, is that the team lacks many of the physical attributes to do so. Consequently, he can't really hoof it up to a lummox in the closing stages (unless he throws a CB forward, which he might if VK was fit) so he rather finds himself stuck in many ways with having to play the way he and the club espouses. That is not to say we couldn't play a game that would involve us having less possession but I'm not sure that is the answer.
I'm not quite as unconvinced that dropping the defensive line back a bit would be a good idea but I favour sticking as closely as possible to trying to get the players to simply concentrate on not making errors. I'm not ready to call for an abandonment of the idea that dominating the ball cannot be a route to success in England. I do think we need personnel changes though to succeed, regardless of our style (one reason why I say it's the players) . You''ll be delighted to know that I want a few big fast fuckers in the team; the problem is they need the touch and technique of Xavi.
Was that an accidental pun?
Yep!