BillyShears said:fbloke said:I'm happy for you if it is as you are likely well off (i happen to not to have to count every penny too) but to dismiss a cost so casually tells me you missing the issue that faces fans who are not as financially secure as you are.
I hate to state the obvious, and I'm not trying to be glib, but in life if you can't afford something - well you can't afford it. I've had moments in my life where I couldn't afford to go to City and I lived in Manchester. I really don't understand why our supporters choose to criticise the club for it's pricing policy when, although it may not be perfect, it isn't anywhere close to the most prohibitive in the league, and is actually one which tries to cater for Blues of all walks of life.
As an aside, the OP seems to have disappeared since it was pointed out were paying 20 pounds some 8 years ago for the same card.
mancityvstoke said:ahh yes...doubling up on turnstiles.......naughty
jma said:Petrovs left peg said:jma said:I know I'm missing something here. Some sort of joke. Because I am sure that you are not trying to justify something with the example of having to make cutbacks when you were a student.
Students - no, or very little, income. Huge debts. Huge costs, relative to income. Basically, a time in life when people can afford fuck all and resort to eating beans on toast for every meal because they are permanently skint.
Are you really using that example as comparable to blokes in full time employment who, despite always having been able to watch City, find themselves more and more priced out. Priced out, not of eating out every night. Not of 5 star holidays. Not of extravagant luxury. But of watching 90 minutes of 11 blokes kicking a football about for the football team that represents their area.
And that's also why Billy's point doesn't stack up. Don't get me wrong, I know blokes who 25 years ago stopped going for a while because they had a new family or whatever, it has always gone on. But people in a similar financial position would not even be anywhere near close to making that decision these days as they have been completely priced out years ago.
So, the argument that "people always have to miss out on stuff if they can't afford it - fact of life" is too simplistic.
If suddenly the price of every carrot in the world was fixed at £300 each, none of us would buy carrots. We wouldn't just think "Oh, well, I can't afford carrots, that's the way of the world".
We would think "This is mental, carrots fixed at £300. The carrot industry is taking the piss. Something is all wrong with the world when people are charging that much for carrots and fleecing carrot addicts for something so run of the mill."
Well, football is pretty run of the mill. Every area has it's team that the people there want to go and watch. Just because the price of football in this country is fixed by the cartel in control and none of them really have the bollocks (or means, in terms of the smaller clubs) to address that, doesn't mean that it is just 'the way of the world' and not scandalous. It doesn't mean that City don't take the piss out of addicted fans in the knowledge that they have them over a barrel. It doesn't mean that their aren't people at the club who sit there most days viewing the fans as a cynical money making commodity and who couldn't care less who is priced out or how the fanbase is affected, as long as the figure on the bottom line goes up.
Football prices, in the country as a whole, but significantly at City in recent years, can't be viewed through the prism of "some people can afford things, some people can't". Firstly, because watching football has never been a luxury until football became overrun by cynical twats in recent years and made it so, purely because they can and it looks good on their CV or pays them a dividend every year. And secondly because the cynical squeeze that is being put on City fans every year, with the price of everything increasing way beyond inflation, year upon year in the middle of economic hardship, and various extra charges for nothing being added at every turn (ticket priority, cup schemes, platinum nonsense, etc) is so out of line with the normal considerations that any other non football business has to work under it is unrecognisable. Simply put, they know they have fans by the bollocks and that they are desperate to stay watching City. They know that there will be plenty of bellends willing to glory hunt and replace a percentage of anyone priced out. And as such, they have become cynical beyond belief when it comes to trying to extract every last penny. What makes it even more distasteful is that fact that the figures involved mean virtually nothing to the club in the long run, so it is actually just done so someone can show that they are uber efficient in doing so.
I used the example of when i was a student as it was a time when i couldn't afford to go (early 90's). It doesn't matter whether you are a student, unemployed, got 12 kids etc etc. the fact is you can't afford to go and you have other priorities in life.
What do you want the club to do - find the poorest fucking fan alive and then cost it around them?? Get in the real world.
And what the fuck have the price of carrots got to do with anything?? Suggest you look up the basic economic principle of supply and demand.
City are heading to the top and unfortunately some will get left behind - I can just imagine the transfer forum when Soriano announces "because we are in the middle of economic hardship we are going to sign free transfers only from the conference as we have a couple of fans who are hard up at the moment"
We have some of the cheapest ticket prices around, the club are investing millions in extending the ground to enable more cheap seats and still we get moaning fuckers like you having a go at them - it really is unbelievable!!!!
Thanks for the economics tutorial. I'll send my degree in the subject back forthwith with a note saying that it is undeserved as someone has confounded me by pointing out the example of them being unable to afford to watch City whilst studying pop music at the University of Bolton.
If you can't figure out what I was pointing out, that's your problem.
SWP's back said:When you don't renew, you lose 1,000 that you got for having a SC.Grieffymcfcctid said:i couldn't afford a season ticket this year due to being out of work so i have just got this blue membership, does it still count all your loyalty points from previous season tickets ? ive heard once you don't renew your season tickets most your points all go, also ive heard thats not true, just wondering
Depends how many points you you, if you have 9,000 then you lose 1/9th, if you only have 2,000 then you will be losing half of them.
jma said:Petrovs left peg said:jma said:I know I'm missing something here. Some sort of joke. Because I am sure that you are not trying to justify something with the example of having to make cutbacks when you were a student.
Students - no, or very little, income. Huge debts. Huge costs, relative to income. Basically, a time in life when people can afford fuck all and resort to eating beans on toast for every meal because they are permanently skint.
Are you really using that example as comparable to blokes in full time employment who, despite always having been able to watch City, find themselves more and more priced out. Priced out, not of eating out every night. Not of 5 star holidays. Not of extravagant luxury. But of watching 90 minutes of 11 blokes kicking a football about for the football team that represents their area.
And that's also why Billy's point doesn't stack up. Don't get me wrong, I know blokes who 25 years ago stopped going for a while because they had a new family or whatever, it has always gone on. But people in a similar financial position would not even be anywhere near close to making that decision these days as they have been completely priced out years ago.
So, the argument that "people always have to miss out on stuff if they can't afford it - fact of life" is too simplistic.
If suddenly the price of every carrot in the world was fixed at £300 each, none of us would buy carrots. We wouldn't just think "Oh, well, I can't afford carrots, that's the way of the world".
We would think "This is mental, carrots fixed at £300. The carrot industry is taking the piss. Something is all wrong with the world when people are charging that much for carrots and fleecing carrot addicts for something so run of the mill."
Well, football is pretty run of the mill. Every area has it's team that the people there want to go and watch. Just because the price of football in this country is fixed by the cartel in control and none of them really have the bollocks (or means, in terms of the smaller clubs) to address that, doesn't mean that it is just 'the way of the world' and not scandalous. It doesn't mean that City don't take the piss out of addicted fans in the knowledge that they have them over a barrel. It doesn't mean that their aren't people at the club who sit there most days viewing the fans as a cynical money making commodity and who couldn't care less who is priced out or how the fanbase is affected, as long as the figure on the bottom line goes up.
Football prices, in the country as a whole, but significantly at City in recent years, can't be viewed through the prism of "some people can afford things, some people can't". Firstly, because watching football has never been a luxury until football became overrun by cynical twats in recent years and made it so, purely because they can and it looks good on their CV or pays them a dividend every year. And secondly because the cynical squeeze that is being put on City fans every year, with the price of everything increasing way beyond inflation, year upon year in the middle of economic hardship, and various extra charges for nothing being added at every turn (ticket priority, cup schemes, platinum nonsense, etc) is so out of line with the normal considerations that any other non football business has to work under it is unrecognisable. Simply put, they know they have fans by the bollocks and that they are desperate to stay watching City. They know that there will be plenty of bellends willing to glory hunt and replace a percentage of anyone priced out. And as such, they have become cynical beyond belief when it comes to trying to extract every last penny. What makes it even more distasteful is that fact that the figures involved mean virtually nothing to the club in the long run, so it is actually just done so someone can show that they are uber efficient in doing so.
I used the example of when i was a student as it was a time when i couldn't afford to go (early 90's). It doesn't matter whether you are a student, unemployed, got 12 kids etc etc. the fact is you can't afford to go and you have other priorities in life.
What do you want the club to do - find the poorest fucking fan alive and then cost it around them?? Get in the real world.
And what the fuck have the price of carrots got to do with anything?? Suggest you look up the basic economic principle of supply and demand.
City are heading to the top and unfortunately some will get left behind - I can just imagine the transfer forum when Soriano announces "because we are in the middle of economic hardship we are going to sign free transfers only from the conference as we have a couple of fans who are hard up at the moment"
We have some of the cheapest ticket prices around, the club are investing millions in extending the ground to enable more cheap seats and still we get moaning fuckers like you having a go at them - it really is unbelievable!!!!
Thanks for the economics tutorial. I'll send my degree in the subject back forthwith with a note saying that it is undeserved as someone has confounded me by pointing out the example of them being unable to afford to watch City whilst studying pop music at the University of Bolton.
If you can't figure out what I was pointing out, that's your problem.
Petrovs left peg said:jma said:Petrovs left peg said:I used the example of when i was a student as it was a time when i couldn't afford to go (early 90's). It doesn't matter whether you are a student, unemployed, got 12 kids etc etc. the fact is you can't afford to go and you have other priorities in life.
What do you want the club to do - find the poorest fucking fan alive and then cost it around them?? Get in the real world.
And what the fuck have the price of carrots got to do with anything?? Suggest you look up the basic economic principle of supply and demand.
City are heading to the top and unfortunately some will get left behind - I can just imagine the transfer forum when Soriano announces "because we are in the middle of economic hardship we are going to sign free transfers only from the conference as we have a couple of fans who are hard up at the moment"
We have some of the cheapest ticket prices around, the club are investing millions in extending the ground to enable more cheap seats and still we get moaning fuckers like you having a go at them - it really is unbelievable!!!!
Thanks for the economics tutorial. I'll send my degree in the subject back forthwith with a note saying that it is undeserved as someone has confounded me by pointing out the example of them being unable to afford to watch City whilst studying pop music at the University of Bolton.
If you can't figure out what I was pointing out, that's your problem.
To be honest mate, I'm still trying to fathom it out! Maybe your economics degree could help you explain to us pop music students?
If to you, it's 11 blokes kicking a ball around - go to your local park. This is 2013 and the Premier League, the worlds most watched football league.
Where do you get the idea that pricing is fixed by a cartel??? The club are building a new stand at a substantial cost to provide lower prices - they are in tune with the fans.
The carrot analogy is so ridiculous I do question your academic claims. NO economics student worth their salt would use that pile of bollocks. Let me tell you that the spot price on potatoes right now is nearly double what it was in August. Supply and demand, and yes caterers are looking at alternatives to potato products. They are not protesting in their masses saying the potato industry "is taking the piss!!!" Supply and demand.
The figure on the bottom line has to go up. See FFP.
Ticket priority, cup schemes and platinum are all OPTIONAL. When they become compulsory ill agree with you.
Finally your last sentence about it means nothing to the club as its only a tiny amount - tut tut tut. Another one who thinks the club owes them one
billymumphrey said:jma said:Petrovs left peg said:I used the example of when i was a student as it was a time when i couldn't afford to go (early 90's). It doesn't matter whether you are a student, unemployed, got 12 kids etc etc. the fact is you can't afford to go and you have other priorities in life.
What do you want the club to do - find the poorest fucking fan alive and then cost it around them?? Get in the real world.
And what the fuck have the price of carrots got to do with anything?? Suggest you look up the basic economic principle of supply and demand.
City are heading to the top and unfortunately some will get left behind - I can just imagine the transfer forum when Soriano announces "because we are in the middle of economic hardship we are going to sign free transfers only from the conference as we have a couple of fans who are hard up at the moment"
We have some of the cheapest ticket prices around, the club are investing millions in extending the ground to enable more cheap seats and still we get moaning fuckers like you having a go at them - it really is unbelievable!!!!
Thanks for the economics tutorial. I'll send my degree in the subject back forthwith with a note saying that it is undeserved as someone has confounded me by pointing out the example of them being unable to afford to watch City whilst studying pop music at the University of Bolton.
If you can't figure out what I was pointing out, that's your problem.
Mate, going to have to pull you up on a few points.
Your first post on this thread was pretty incendiary labelling posters as "thick as fuck idiots" for having a differing view to your good self.
You then go on to claim that "But when people are that desperate to justify anything that they make it personal and start to question the loyalty of blues who might struggle to meet it, that's pathetic." Now that really doesn't sit well with me because 1) until that stage no one was posting questioning the loyalty of blues due to their inability/ability to pay for tickets, 2) it was definitely a strawman argument and 3) you criticise people for launching into (non-existent) personal attacks whilst labelling a lot of people "thick as fuck idiots". Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
On the whole I feel that the thread has been quite a good discussion. Most of the back and forth has been in good nature and evidence (from both sides) cited where possible. I think healthy debate on issues like this is important, however stinging vitriol and searing anger culminating in the negativity that is becoming more and more frequent doesn't help anyone.
The OP has not been seen on this thread after it had been pointed out that prices were very similar in 2005, and I think some of the comments in this thread about the negativity would have been avoided if the OP started the thread with a reasoned argument rather than the whole "Fuck Soriano" approach that he did. I'm not dismissing his point of view (it doesn't mirror mine) I'm just sick of how these views are presented in the light of our club being the devil incarnate. Put simply this approach of delivering his view does not help.
Cheers,
Billy aka thick as fuck idiot
jma said:billymumphrey said:jma said:Thanks for the economics tutorial. I'll send my degree in the subject back forthwith with a note saying that it is undeserved as someone has confounded me by pointing out the example of them being unable to afford to watch City whilst studying pop music at the University of Bolton.
If you can't figure out what I was pointing out, that's your problem.
Mate, going to have to pull you up on a few points.
Your first post on this thread was pretty incendiary labelling posters as "thick as fuck idiots" for having a differing view to your good self.
You then go on to claim that "But when people are that desperate to justify anything that they make it personal and start to question the loyalty of blues who might struggle to meet it, that's pathetic." Now that really doesn't sit well with me because 1) until that stage no one was posting questioning the loyalty of blues due to their inability/ability to pay for tickets, 2) it was definitely a strawman argument and 3) you criticise people for launching into (non-existent) personal attacks whilst labelling a lot of people "thick as fuck idiots". Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
On the whole I feel that the thread has been quite a good discussion. Most of the back and forth has been in good nature and evidence (from both sides) cited where possible. I think healthy debate on issues like this is important, however stinging vitriol and searing anger culminating in the negativity that is becoming more and more frequent doesn't help anyone.
The OP has not been seen on this thread after it had been pointed out that prices were very similar in 2005, and I think some of the comments in this thread about the negativity would have been avoided if the OP started the thread with a reasoned argument rather than the whole "Fuck Soriano" approach that he did. I'm not dismissing his point of view (it doesn't mirror mine) I'm just sick of how these views are presented in the light of our club being the devil incarnate. Put simply this approach of delivering his view does not help.
Cheers,
Billy aka thick as fuck idiot
As the myths about prices needing to constantly increase because they play a significant part with FFP are a) easily dismissed if you spend more than 60 seconds thinking about the numbers and b) have been disproved over and over again on this site, then it can't exactly be clever when people continue to, over and over, trot out the same lines of justification ad nauseum. I'll admit, I was riled by a poster sneering at and questioning the citing of an old man's finances as a reason for not being able to attend his club that he has supported for decades at that point and it might not have been diplomatic language. But the point still stands.
I know, and every blue must do, people who cannot afford to go any more and the constant rhetoric from the club about how much they value the fans, whilst simultaneously making constant increases in pricing that freeze people out, does tend to rub me up the wrong way. Combine that with the constant stream of people on this site who seem unable to imagine that this does happen to blues because it doesn't fit with their personal circumstances and they can swallow the massively inflation busting rises, then I make no apology for being concerned about blues who are being priced out for no apparent reason.
I'm not sure why you have taken my comments as personal to you and labelled yourself in that way. But if you are of the opinion that the constant price increases regarding normal ticket prices have any significant effect on FFP and can be painted in any way other than 'a business trying to maximise every last bit of revenue from a captive audience that they know does not behave rationally like consumers in other markets', then perhaps it might.
If you are not a "it's to meet FFP" merchant and don't question the circumstances of blues who are priced out of their club, then I haven't got an issue.
billymumphrey said:jma said:billymumphrey said:Mate, going to have to pull you up on a few points.
Your first post on this thread was pretty incendiary labelling posters as "thick as fuck idiots" for having a differing view to your good self.
You then go on to claim that "But when people are that desperate to justify anything that they make it personal and start to question the loyalty of blues who might struggle to meet it, that's pathetic." Now that really doesn't sit well with me because 1) until that stage no one was posting questioning the loyalty of blues due to their inability/ability to pay for tickets, 2) it was definitely a strawman argument and 3) you criticise people for launching into (non-existent) personal attacks whilst labelling a lot of people "thick as fuck idiots". Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
On the whole I feel that the thread has been quite a good discussion. Most of the back and forth has been in good nature and evidence (from both sides) cited where possible. I think healthy debate on issues like this is important, however stinging vitriol and searing anger culminating in the negativity that is becoming more and more frequent doesn't help anyone.
The OP has not been seen on this thread after it had been pointed out that prices were very similar in 2005, and I think some of the comments in this thread about the negativity would have been avoided if the OP started the thread with a reasoned argument rather than the whole "Fuck Soriano" approach that he did. I'm not dismissing his point of view (it doesn't mirror mine) I'm just sick of how these views are presented in the light of our club being the devil incarnate. Put simply this approach of delivering his view does not help.
Cheers,
Billy aka thick as fuck idiot
As the myths about prices needing to constantly increase because they play a significant part with FFP are a) easily dismissed if you spend more than 60 seconds thinking about the numbers and b) have been disproved over and over again on this site, then it can't exactly be clever when people continue to, over and over, trot out the same lines of justification ad nauseum. I'll admit, I was riled by a poster sneering at and questioning the citing of an old man's finances as a reason for not being able to attend his club that he has supported for decades at that point and it might not have been diplomatic language. But the point still stands.
I know, and every blue must do, people who cannot afford to go any more and the constant rhetoric from the club about how much they value the fans, whilst simultaneously making constant increases in pricing that freeze people out, does tend to rub me up the wrong way. Combine that with the constant stream of people on this site who seem unable to imagine that this does happen to blues because it doesn't fit with their personal circumstances and they can swallow the massively inflation busting rises, then I make no apology for being concerned about blues who are being priced out for no apparent reason.
I'm not sure why you have taken my comments as personal to you and labelled yourself in that way. But if you are of the opinion that the constant price increases regarding normal ticket prices have any significant effect on FFP and can be painted in any way other than 'a business trying to maximise every last bit of revenue from a captive audience that they know does not behave rationally like consumers in other markets', then perhaps it might.
If you are not a "it's to meet FFP" merchant and don't question the circumstances of blues who are priced out of their club, then I haven't got an issue.
My reasoning has been, if we want to see world class players playing and have one of the largest wage bills in world football, it is not unreasonable to expect that the price will increase commensurate to the talent on show.
jma said:billymumphrey said:jma said:As the myths about prices needing to constantly increase because they play a significant part with FFP are a) easily dismissed if you spend more than 60 seconds thinking about the numbers and b) have been disproved over and over again on this site, then it can't exactly be clever when people continue to, over and over, trot out the same lines of justification ad nauseum. I'll admit, I was riled by a poster sneering at and questioning the citing of an old man's finances as a reason for not being able to attend his club that he has supported for decades at that point and it might not have been diplomatic language. But the point still stands.
I know, and every blue must do, people who cannot afford to go any more and the constant rhetoric from the club about how much they value the fans, whilst simultaneously making constant increases in pricing that freeze people out, does tend to rub me up the wrong way. Combine that with the constant stream of people on this site who seem unable to imagine that this does happen to blues because it doesn't fit with their personal circumstances and they can swallow the massively inflation busting rises, then I make no apology for being concerned about blues who are being priced out for no apparent reason.
I'm not sure why you have taken my comments as personal to you and labelled yourself in that way. But if you are of the opinion that the constant price increases regarding normal ticket prices have any significant effect on FFP and can be painted in any way other than 'a business trying to maximise every last bit of revenue from a captive audience that they know does not behave rationally like consumers in other markets', then perhaps it might.
If you are not a "it's to meet FFP" merchant and don't question the circumstances of blues who are priced out of their club, then I haven't got an issue.
My reasoning has been, if we want to see world class players playing and have one of the largest wage bills in world football, it is not unreasonable to expect that the price will increase commensurate to the talent on show.
Why?
Because that's what 'top clubs' do? Because other 'top clubs' in England cynically exploit their fans attachment to their club and charge them silly prices? So if City are to be a top club they must emulate them?
There's no way that normal ticket prices have, in any way whatsoever, been a factor in the club being able to attract said "top players", so I'm struggling to think of other reasons why we should "expect" prices to watch City to raise way above inflation, year upon year?
It also suggests that support for the club is a function of the quality of player on show. That's not true (for long standing fans anyway). Most would watch City if they were shite or brilliant. And that is exactly the reason why such cynical behaviour in pricing is indulged in. Because they know that the average fan does not look at it rationally and will do everything in their power to avoid walking away. The quality of player/price paid for a ticket, value for money consideration does not come into it. And that is the reason why football fans are so easily exploited.