Explosion at MEN Arena/Victoria Station

From my perspective, this division is only created by those who do not wish to integrate with "normal society" and consider themselves somehow closer to this supposed creator. We are "them", that is the whole point to their existence for causing maximum tragedy.

In terms of logistics, I'm talking about following the money, investing more in surveillance and snatching them from their beds if that is what it takes.

Order does not exist in life, I live alongside random chaos.

That does not mean I believe we should wait for things to happen before we react.

We've got an almost ridiculous amount of investment in surveillance and intelligence gathering to the point whereby we're treading the bounds of a Police state already. What more do you want? And why do people presume that our massive security services aren't already doing things every single day?

I've got a mate who I grew up with - think we've spoke about where I grew up and you know it. Nice, normal area with nice, normal people - nothing remarkable either way. Anyway, this mate of mine has gone full on religion after a brush with gangs and is now talking about end of the world apocalypse type religious stuff (and this is all true by the way). He's preaching that gay people should be hated, that demons exist and possess people and only people who believe in Allah should be spared. He hates Christians and says they're evil people who need to be exterminated. In fact the mosque he visits regularly preaches this and he's only just returned from preaching in an African country currently ran by religious extremists with a large ISIS following.

Should I report him?

Now swap in Islam for Christian and mosques for churches. Still report him? If not, why not and if so why?
 
A few years ago we went to Jordan for a holiday just as the Syria thing was looking like it might kick off (7 years ago?) and we had fully intended to go to Syria for a look at the old sites. Going more recently, however, is a little different.
yes before the troubles, Syria was supposed to be a beautiful country with some amazing ancient ruins.
 
The tone of this thread has been on the whole just right but atrocities such as the one on Monday are bound to open up the debate in an attempt to examine what might have caused this and what might be done to prevent it happening again.

The part of your post that I have highlighted is, IMHO, one of the prime motivators for young radicalised Muslim men and women to act in the way that the bomber did on Monday.

You are correct that the enlightenment in the 17th century did, through scientific reason and philosophical thought and debate, compel people, over time, to question certain religious certainties that had prevailed for many centuries as the dominant idea of how things came about and how society should be structured. The most significant outcome of this is what we might now term Western Global Capitalism (WGC).

The reformation and enlightenment rejected a lot of religious authority, however it did not reject it all and gave rise to a number of things we now take for granted all of which are based in a reformed view of Christianity. An example is the protestant work ethic - the idea that a good life is spent working hard and providing for your family etc. Of course through this the worker benefits to some extent (never enough) but the real beneficiaries are those who own the factories or the mills or the call centres and it is the interests of those few that are ultimately being met.

What WGC need is resources that can be capitalised (raw materials, labour etc.) and these need to be obtained at the lowest possible cost to make the most profit. With the raw material this is relatively easy but with labour not so. This is where WGC is so very clever though because it basically promises you what you want (happiness, contentment, fulfillment etc....) but only gives you what you need (shelter, food, security etc...) and it is the promise that keeps everyone engaged with work that does nothing to provide what people really want.

The other thing about WGC is that it uses up resources or they become to expensive. However this is no barrier as it will just move the market to where if can find the cheapest or most plentiful supply. Hence for the last 3-400 years we have been subjugating our own citizens as well as populations all over the globe in the name of 'progress' and 'democracy' (nice ideas that again never fully materialise). What we are seeing on the streets of European cities is a response to that. It is not new in the sense that there have been many attempts over the centuries to halt the tide of WGC or to make the system fairer (revolution) which have resulted in some tweaks to the model (universal suffrage) in some cases and suppression (totalitarianism) in others but most often scapegoating (fascism) where the blame for the failure of the system to deliver what we want is laid at the door of the 'other' (immigrant, Jew, Muslim etc.).

Sorry for the longevity of this but there are no simple solutions and we need to rethink things a lot.

What a complete load of twaddle.

But cutting though all the lefty political nonsense, how on earth does us not attacking anyone in the name of Christianity, *motivate* people to attack us? Are you suggesting we should be having more crusades like we did in 1095? Would that help?
 
This was a horrible act of violence, which I'm sure no single religion would advocate.

I personally have been impacted by this as my wife and 12 year old daughter were there, they were in the line to walk out the exit near to the where the bomb went off and that would have been their route out. We are extremely thankful that they got home safely but the impact this has had on our family is there. My daughter has barely spoken or eaten for 2 days, my wife is in constant tears. This will take time for us to heal from this and we have to keep reminding ourselves how lucky we have been. The images and sounds which have been imprinted on both will remain with them for a long time.

We are truly heartbroken by the experience but totally fail to comprehend what the people who have lost loved ones are currently feeling.

The question is always Why? these fuckers have death too easy. Don't even think these are religious fanatics. I have Muslim friends and they all condemn the behaviour of these.

I just hope the Governments of the world could do something different, but nobody knows what.

All I can say is - I love my family to bits but I also take them for granted. These last few days has reinforced my feelings and the extra hug or kiss doesn't hurt nobody.
 
Radical Imams, Hate Preachers, Jihadists, Radical Extremists, and any Radicalised converts should be taken off the street.

Forget Human Rights and liberty they should be taken out. I know the argument about plenty more stepping up to the plate follows but... what good has been achieved by allowing them to live here, very often on benefits, what good has become of embracing their hatred for us? The answer, very little.

I'm not talking about all Muslims because I recognise them as being a peaceful race, but these idiots that want to harm us, wreck our society and impose themselves over us, they have no place whatsoever in my country.

We need to get tough, forget allowing appeals against deportation, forget giving legal aid to fight our system, the system they hate yet use all ay every day. If they don't like us to the extent they preach hatred then I'm afraid the time has come for us as a society to say fuck off, you're not wanted here!

No fuss, no headlines, just remove them and if we have an error rate of say 5% where five innocents suffer, well I'm afraid that's the price to be paid for these people preaching hate in our country.

Hopefully this would encourage the law abiding, peace loving Muslims who are in the majority to turn I the people who are letting them down!
 
We've got an almost ridiculous amount of investment in surveillance and intelligence gathering to the point whereby we're treading the bounds of a Police state already. What more do you want? And why do people presume that our massive security services aren't already doing things every single day?

I've got a mate who I grew up with - think we've spoke about where I grew up and you know it. Nice, normal area with nice, normal people - nothing remarkable either way. Anyway, this mate of mine has gone full on religion after a brush with gangs and is now talking about end of the world apocalypse type religious stuff (and this is all true by the way). He's preaching that gay people should be hated, that demons exist and possess people and only people who believe in Allah should be spared. He hates Christians and says they're evil people who need to be exterminated. In fact the mosque he visits regularly preaches this and he's only just returned from preaching in an African country currently ran by religious extremists with a large ISIS following.

Should I report him?

Now swap in Islam for Christian and mosques for churches. Still report him? If not, why not and if so why?
Unbelievable
 
The guy was a Mancunian, born to very normal parents and wasn't particularly noteworthy in any way. What exactly, before they commit acts, defines "them"?
If you believe the reports, the black ISIS flag flying in his garden should've been a big clue.
 
But cutting though all the lefty political nonsense, how on earth does us not attacking anyone in the name of Christianity, *motivate* people to attack us? Are you suggesting we should be having more crusades like we did in 1095? Would that help?

239.jpg
 
You did. They're in your head and you're making fear based rationalisations because of it.

Cant believe I'm reading some of the crap you're coming out with. You're normally a decent poster too. I haven't read the full read, so you might have already said this, what's your opinion of this lad coming back from a trip to Libya a few a days ago, then blowing himself up at a concert? Should he be allowed to walk the streets of Britain? This is just one person we're talking about too, god knows how many more are making the same trip every week.
 

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