FA Youth Cup 4th Round vs Liverpool (19:00 KO)

Cobra said:
Suarez, Rekik, Lopes and Guidetti are all playing regular football in top leagues across Europe, and yet 3 of them didn't feature in a single league game when they were at City.
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Suarez forced his way out at 16, he wasn't ready for the first team then, so there's not much the club could have done. He said he wanted a chance in the first team but was happy to go to Barca B for 2 seasons, then go on 2 loans - even though the contract he signed when he rejoined them from us made it mandatory he was promoted after 1 season in Barca B - he allowed them to renege on that, which makes it pretty obvious he just wanted to go back to them.

Rekik was a laughing stock in Ligue 1 last season, and this season he's been shoved in at LB, or more often, the bench.

Guidetti would have played, I'm sure of that, if not for the virus that left him bedridden for a year and nearly cost him his leg.

Lopes was bought by Monaco, but loaned off because he wasn't good enough and now he's starting regularly, but for Lille, in one of their worst seasons of recent times and he's doing worse there than he was on loan 2 years ago.

I liked them all when they were here as kids, but none of them have done anything to suggest they'd get a senior game if they were parachuted into the squad today.
 
twosips said:
No reason to get shirty, don't worry! It's a very hard question to answer, but when you consider that Glenn Whelan is currently playing in the Premier League and basically anyone we've had in our academy sides for the past few years is probably better than he ever was as a kid, then you'd guess many could if given a chance. It's all guess work cos it depends on how they reacted to the situation. Some seemingly lesser players blossom surrounded by great players, some fall, despite being more talented. Someone like Evans could have surprised us. He's now playing near the top end of the Championship and always looked very good in preseason with the first team, surrounded by top class players. What's to say that he couldn't have fitted in and been a good squad player for us? People like Lopes too could have been a terrifying impact sub, and he actually showed that v West Ham, looking excellent...then explicably never got another shot again. Someone like Kean Bryan is a very tidy footballer with bags of heart, great physicality and a proper warrior. I've absolutely no doubt that if he'd have been introduced as a late sub and told to destroy anything in front of our defence, instead that went to Demichelis for some baffling reason, he'd have 100% not let us down and probably won a few home fans over too with his determination.

Barker maybe should have got a chance as a sub when he was absolutely flying and full of confidence (and he really, really was a couple of years back) and Ambrose was also causing all manner of problems at 17/18. Denayer 100% should have become a squad regular last year seeing as he was ours, he'd just been one of the best, if not the best, player over in Scotland (you can mock it, but as a kid on loan in a physical league, to win the young player of they ear in your first ever pro season is impressive) and he was impressing for Belgium and away at Inter in a 10 man team, but (yet again) MP picked Demichelis over him which boggles the mind. Basically, you never really fully *know* until they get a chance. I don't expect any kids to be thrown in as regulars, even now. I don't think Maffeo or Garcia should be playing every game, though I think they're both excellent footballers. I just expect us to know when the right moment is for them to be challenged further.

A young game changer like Barker was at 17/18, genuinely destroying basically everyone he faced at youth level week in week out should have totally been rewarded with a 20 minute cameo when he was flying. That's what you do. You give them that taste. The worst case scenario is that he would've been quiet, done nowt and no damage would have been done. The best case scenario is that, full of confidence, he could have skinned his FB, set up a last minute goal and saw his self-belief and confidence rocket. A star is born. Think Rashford, a player that had done significantly less than Barker at youth level and couldn't get anywhere near the England youth setup cos of Barker. This stuff CAN happen, but it can only happen when they get a chance. Instead Barker never got his shot, was faffing about in the EDS a year later, his form and confidence started to drop as he stagnated and he was shipped out on a fucking terrible loan to Rotherham which dented him further. Not a single person in the world *knows* if a talented kid will make it or not. If they say they do, they don't. I don't, Pep doesn't, MP doesn't. Txiki doesn't. Some opinions are more informed than others, definitely, but no one ever fully knows until it happens out on the pitch.

All I ask as a fan is that they get a chance when they deserve it. I trust and hope Pep knows this. I think he does. The fact that Foden was involved the other week as a 16 year old is brilliant. Genuinely. It's Pep doing EXACTLY what I explained up there ^ Rewarding an exceptional young lad on a very upwards trajectory with that taste to keep him motivated. It's a shame he didn't get on, but it's still huge for the lad. He's 16. Imagine the boost that gave him. Brahim got it too v Swansea earlier this season. You reward exceptional talent with that taste to encourage them. If you don't give it them, their heads drop. That doesn't then mean they're then not good enough or strong enough mentally. It means they're human, they're kids and they react to things emotionally like the rest of us. I'm totally aware it's not always possible to give kids a chance, but it 100% has been possible for that to happen over the last couple of years. We've had an 18 year old Ambrose on the bench, in the middle of a great run of form, at home 3-0 up to WBA, and MP then brings on Scott fucking Sinclair instead. Literally what is the point? Bring a reject on who everyone knew would leave in a couple of months who hadn't played a game in ages cos he wasn't good enough, or bring the kid on who could be the potential future of your club? There is literally no excuse for that. A single decision like that can change the whole feeling around the academy.

I don't expect ten academy players in the first team. I know its not possible, but what I do expect, and hope for, is that we offer actual incentives for these young lads and show them that their exceptional form at youth level will be rewarded potentially. There has been absolutely loads of good young players at City over the past 2/3 years. Not all would have gone to be stars, but a few could have definitely surprised us and saved us a fortune in the transfer market. I just wish we'd had the guts to actually find out. We get it so wrong in this country. We'd much rather buy someone else's young lad who's played 30 games instead of develop our own. The irony is that our young lads had probably out-played that young lad at youth level only a few months earlier too...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that reply. Great stuff.

I do believe that if 3 or 4 of this present u18s do not make it then we have a serious issue between developing talent and making sure it reaches full potential.
 
To break into the first team squad sometimes it's down to good fortune. I don't recall Rashford tearing up trees with the rag youth academy but he took his opportunity and the club have backed him since.
 
domalino said:
Suarez forced his way out at 16, he wasn't ready for the first team then, so there's not much the club could have done. He said he wanted a chance in the first team but was happy to go to Barca B for 2 seasons, then go on 2 loans.

Rekik was a laughing stock in Ligue 1 last season, and this season he's been shoved in at LB, or more often, the bench.

Guidetti would have played, I'm sure of that, if not for the virus that left him bedridden for a year and nearly cost him his leg.

Lopes was bought by Monaco, but loaned off because he wasn't good enough and now he's starting regularly, but for Lille, in one of their worst seasons of recent times and he's doing worse there than he was on loan 2 years ago.

I liked them all when they were here as kids, but none of them have done anything to suggest they'd get a senior game if they were parachuted into the squad today.
Click to expand...

I'd agree none are pulling up trees now, but that's probably not to say that they couldn't have been. Tbh, Rekik just stagnated at 16. He seemed to stop developing there. I Suarez was about 18/19 when he left us btw, not 16, but yeah. One that got away. Lopes is a strange one. Almost convinced he could have gone either way but not sure we pushed him the right way tbh.
 
twosips said:
No reason to get shirty, don't worry! It's a very hard question to answer, but when you consider that Glenn Whelan is currently playing in the Premier League and basically anyone we've had in our academy sides for the past few years is probably better than he ever was as a kid, then you'd guess many could if given a chance. It's all guess work cos it depends on how they reacted to the situation. Some seemingly lesser players blossom surrounded by great players, some fall, despite being more talented. Someone like Evans could have surprised us. He's now playing near the top end of the Championship and always looked very good in preseason with the first team, surrounded by top class players. What's to say that he couldn't have fitted in and been a good squad player for us? People like Lopes too could have been a terrifying impact sub, and he actually showed that v West Ham, looking excellent...then explicably never got another shot again. Someone like Kean Bryan is a very tidy footballer with bags of heart, great physicality and a proper warrior. I've absolutely no doubt that if he'd have been introduced as a late sub and told to destroy anything in front of our defence, instead that went to Demichelis for some baffling reason, he'd have 100% not let us down and probably won a few home fans over too with his determination.

Barker maybe should have got a chance as a sub when he was absolutely flying and full of confidence (and he really, really was a couple of years back) and Ambrose was also causing all manner of problems at 17/18. Denayer 100% should have become a squad regular last year seeing as he was ours, he'd just been one of the best, if not the best, player over in Scotland (you can mock it, but as a kid on loan in a physical league, to win the young player of they ear in your first ever pro season is impressive) and he was impressing for Belgium and away at Inter in a 10 man team, but (yet again) MP picked Demichelis over him which boggles the mind. Basically, you never really fully *know* until they get a chance. I don't expect any kids to be thrown in as regulars, even now. I don't think Maffeo or Garcia should be playing every game, though I think they're both excellent footballers. I just expect us to know when the right moment is for them to be challenged further.

A young game changer like Barker was at 17/18, genuinely destroying basically everyone he faced at youth level week in week out should have totally been rewarded with a 20 minute cameo when he was flying. That's what you do. You give them that taste. The worst case scenario is that he would've been quiet, done nowt and no damage would have been done. The best case scenario is that, full of confidence, he could have skinned his FB, set up a last minute goal and saw his self-belief and confidence rocket. A star is born. Think Rashford, a player that had done significantly less than Barker at youth level and couldn't get anywhere near the England youth setup cos of Barker. This stuff CAN happen, but it can only happen when they get a chance. Instead Barker never got his shot, was faffing about in the EDS a year later, his form and confidence started to drop as he stagnated and he was shipped out on a fucking terrible loan to Rotherham which dented him further. Not a single person in the world *knows* if a talented kid will make it or not. If they say they do, they don't. I don't, Pep doesn't, MP doesn't. Txiki doesn't. Some opinions are more informed than others, definitely, but no one ever fully knows until it happens out on the pitch.

All I ask as a fan is that they get a chance when they deserve it. I trust and hope Pep knows this. I think he does. The fact that Foden was involved the other week as a 16 year old is brilliant. Genuinely. It's Pep doing EXACTLY what I explained up there ^ Rewarding an exceptional young lad on a very upwards trajectory with that taste to keep him motivated. It's a shame he didn't get on, but it's still huge for the lad. He's 16. Imagine the boost that gave him. Brahim got it too v Swansea earlier this season. You reward exceptional talent with that taste to encourage them. If you don't give it them, their heads drop. That doesn't then mean they're then not good enough or strong enough mentally. It means they're human, they're kids and they react to things emotionally like the rest of us. I'm totally aware it's not always possible to give kids a chance, but it 100% has been possible for that to happen over the last couple of years. We've had an 18 year old Ambrose on the bench, in the middle of a great run of form, at home 3-0 up to WBA, and MP then brings on Scott fucking Sinclair instead. Literally what is the point? Bring a reject on who everyone knew would leave in a couple of months who hadn't played a game in ages cos he wasn't good enough, or bring the kid on who could be the potential future of your club? There is literally no excuse for that. A single decision like that can change the whole feeling around the academy.

I don't expect ten academy players in the first team. I know its not possible, but what I do expect, and hope for, is that we offer actual incentives for these young lads and show them that their exceptional form at youth level will be rewarded potentially. There has been absolutely loads of good young players at City over the past 2/3 years. Not all would have gone to be stars, but a few could have definitely surprised us and saved us a fortune in the transfer market. I just wish we'd had the guts to actually find out. We get it so wrong in this country. We'd much rather buy someone else's young lad who's played 30 games instead of develop our own. The irony is that our young lads had probably out-played that young lad at youth level only a few months earlier too...
Click to expand...
Really good read - cheers. One question though. Is it possible that say, Barker, was brought into training with the first team and struggled with the increased physicality (maybe was on the receiving end of a crunching tackle or two?) to the point where he didn't shine so much - and so wasn't deemed ready in this way? Just a thought - and I don't if this is true but maybe some players skill sets don't 'translate' so well from youth team to first team level?
 
asahartford1 said:
Thanks for that reply. Great stuff.

I do believe that if 3 or 4 of this present u18s do not make it then we have a serious issue between developing talent and making sure it reaches full potential.
Click to expand...

Agree totally with all of the above. I have stated the same as Asa has above just from seeing our current 16 year olds playing in the EDS and U18's this year.
I have had my doubts over the last couple of years about some of the methods in the academy, particularly around game management and preparation for the Premiership conditions.
I look at the likes of Adarabioyo and think, yes he has made mistakes but I think, in the little we have seen of him at senior level, he was no worse than what our current seniors are producing quite regularly.
Over the last couple of years when I've seen youth games, I've seen the same football that we aspire to at senior level being played by the youth.
This has lead to the same mistakes and worse happening at the back, as we force goalkeepers and backs to take what we would regard as risks.
I'm sure Twosips can confirm this. More often than not when the opposition scores against us, it's a blunder of our own making. Nothing new there you say and I don't criticise this either.

I have wondered however, is this the reason why Pellegrini and now Pep, so far, has not taken a chance on putting any of our defence in when needed.
Do they not trust that they could handle the reality of the prem. The reality being our so called senior players can't handle what they are being asked to do.
And they are being asked to play precisely the way our youth have been groomed.

If this is true then the thinking is fundamentally flawed and all this preparation for playing the way Pep wants with a conveyor belt of talent coming from the academy
is not going to happen.

You have to believe this is not the case.

One thing that I do think is an encouraging development is the way we play our under age teams at an age group above.

The fact that the likes of Sancho and Diaz are standout players no matter what age group they are played at and a few others already mentioned also, augers well.
I have faith that these guys are the real deal. I accept the lottery nature of a youths development, but as Asa says, if these two in particular do not find their way into the City first team,
then I feel that the Academy is failing, or we have totally misunderstood what it's function is.

Our backline and goalkeeper looked so comfortable last night. I don't know if that is because Liverpool are so poor or not. I'll bow to Twosips knowledge there.
But I have seen Latibeaudierre and Duheaney play before at U16s and have liked the look of them.

I would have thought that these academy players and those that have gone before them, mentioned above by Twosips, would be the reason why we wouldn't have to fork out 50 odd million on the likes of Stones or Sterling for that matter. It would make sound financial sense to fill our squad places with our exceptional youth, save the money for 2-3 Grade A players that would definitely improve us. It would also sort the home grown quota problem. I really don't think at this stage we should be buying in players to fill the homegrown quota. They are overpriced and we have as good in our academy.

Anyway, back on track.
I do think there is something radically wrong with our academy if starting with our current 16 year olds and upwards, we do not get at least 3-4 players into the senior squads next season.
Absolutely no excuse not to play them in the cups.
 
r.soleofsalford said:
I think when young player start look special you have to promote the to a higher standard of football. If not they seem to wither on the vine, most never recover
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TBH I look at the likes of Sancho and Diaz now, as young as they are and think why the hell did we need to buy Sane or even Sterling. I know they were too young last year, but substitute Barker or Roberts or whoever you want.
I would hope when Nolito and Navas are gone that these two will be in there competing for places with the other pair.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
TBH I look at the likes of Sancho and Diaz now, as young as they are and think why the hell did we need to buy Sane or even Sterling. I know they were too young last year, but substitute Barker or Roberts or whoever you want.
I would hope when Nolito and Navas are gone that these two will be in there competing for places with the other pair.
Click to expand...


I like Nolito`s aggression and eye for a goal





I like Navas`s energy, err sorry that it I`m all out
 
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