Fairness

[mad4city]

When you say punish what do you mean by that? Because you could argue that punishment was actually taking money off people that is rightfully theirs. Reducing the amount of money poorer families receive from richer families via the government would not be regarded as punishment in my eyes, but maybe you're not suggesting that?

Firstly, thanks EB2. You pretty much answered this exactly (although rather more eloquently) as I would have.

Now, Johnson...
Rightfully theirs? Do you not agree with the principle that everybody must contribute what they can afford to society?

Do you not accept, the plain as the chip on your shoulder fact, that the rich benefit more from our society than the poor?

Do you not subscribe to the basic human principle of giving a hand up (rather than a hand out) to those who didn't catch the same breaks as you in this life?

Do you seriously argue that the National Debt borne by your country (and don't even get me started on that borne by mine!) isn't anything more than a notional construct fashioned by the elite to keep the poor in their place and ensure the transfer of wealth remains forever flowing in their direction?

The game is rigged. Doesn't matter how many times the wheel spins, the House always wins. You're too busy looking down your nose at Wayne and Waynetta (as featured in the latest Daily Tabloid exclusive) to notice that Wilf and Winifred (last seen on the beach at Marbella whilst their zero-hour-contracted, staff squabble for an extra few pence) are the ones who are really frittering away your tax money.
I know you identify with Wilf and Winifred on some fanciful, maybe even egotistical, level but trust me, unless that's your yacht they're enviously eyeing up, you're just another Wayne on the chopping block to those fuckers.

That is just bollocks why would anyone try to better themselves just so they can give money to the idle tossers who are happy to spend all their life on benefits just knocking out kids

Even the communists never allowed people to do nothing and get state handouts

Firstly, your comment makes no rational attempt counter the bit you highlighted in my post. Fair enough, if you want to ignore rather than counter any of the questions I have posed but don't pretend you're making an attempt to counter any or all of them by randomly spouting shite.

Anyway, for the record, the concept of everybody contributing what each can afford to society is in no way a barrier to bettering oneself. It's basic fairness; quid pro quo, if you will (unless you think, just for example, that first time home buyers should catch no tax breaks whatsoever whilst trying to better their circumstance over the course of their mortgage and it really is just every man for himself in society, for you - in which case, that's fine but hey, don't claim any tax free allowance on your pay, at all then).

Also, the principle is actually a widely cited (by both Left & Right parties) Democratic and indeed, Capitalist, ethos (albeit ignored everywhere, to be fair); rather than a Communist ethos (which, in principle anyway, takes absolutely everything in tax and pays out an equal dividend to each member of society).

 

[Lucky13]

Make sure you turn up for work tomorrow , people need feeding

 

[stony]

Make sure you turn up for work tomorrow , people need feeding

I'm not sure if you're being ironic or just stupid.

 

[DelToro]

Make sure you turn up for work tomorrow , people need feeding

I'm not sure if you're being ironic or just stupid.

If I was a betting man I'd put money on the latter.

 

[che_don_john]

Course people pay more tax if they earn a lot it is fair enough those who benefit the most from society pay the most to society

That implies though that 'society' has handed them a decent living, which isn't necessarily the case (in fact, it's rarely the case at all). What if they just knuckled down in school and got better grades? Or what if they just work that little bit harder than us?

thats the fallacy of the right wing in a nutshell.
the rich are rich because they are better and/or work harder and the poor are poor because they are lazy and feckless.

Its bollocks but its the basis of right wing thought

You've kind of made a straw-man argument there, and your summary of right-wing political though is a tab over-simplistic.

My point wasn't to suggest that less well-off people are "lazy and feckless", nor did I even allude to such a point of view. Rather, I was arguing against this misconception that all people who are successful and wealthy have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths, or that someone has given them a hand-out or a leg-up.

There are plenty of people who have become successful through their own hard-work and accomplishment. To say that all people in the higher-rate tax bracket have been 'given' their wealth and position by society is s much a fallacy as saying that all people with lower-incomes are lazy and feckless.

 

[Blue&whitestripes]

There's an excellent quote from the American Senator Elizabeth Warren on the question of fairness and the 'self-made' wealthy :

 

[Rascal]

There's an excellent quote from the American Senator Elizabeth Warren on the question of fairness and the 'self-made' wealthy :

Well said Elizabeth.

 

[mad4city]

That implies though that 'society' has handed them a decent living, which isn't necessarily the case (in fact, it's rarely the case at all). What if they just knuckled down in school and got better grades? Or what if they just work that little bit harder than us?

thats the fallacy of the right wing in a nutshell.
the rich are rich because they are better and/or work harder and the poor are poor because they are lazy and feckless.

Its bollocks but its the basis of right wing thought

You've kind of made a straw-man argument there, and your summary of right-wing political though is a tab over-simplistic.

My point wasn't to suggest that less well-off people are "lazy and feckless", nor did I even allude to such a point of view. Rather, I was arguing against this misconception that all people who are successful and wealthy have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths, or that someone has given them a hand-out or a leg-up.

There are plenty of people who have become successful through their own hard-work and accomplishment. To say that all people in the higher-rate tax bracket have been 'given' their wealth and position by society is s much a fallacy as saying that all people with lower-incomes are lazy and feckless.

What Pirate said is a good corollary of your own point. So, as you say, it might be a tad simplistic as a take on Right Wing thinking but, with respect, it seems to me that he's pretty much nailed your thinking. (At least, as demonstrated in that post).

 

[Hart of the Matter]

Some may find the following interesting and enlightening. Income tax is only part of the total taxation picture. <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/money/quiz/2014/jun/16/tax-richest-poorest-average-quiz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/money/quiz/2 ... erage-quiz</a>

 

[101toMR]

There's an excellent quote from the American Senator Elizabeth Warren on the question of fairness and the 'self-made' wealthy :

She may have a point but has anything been done to rectify this?
Good old fashioned grandstanding.