Fairness

[stonerblue]

Make sure you turn up for work tomorrow , people need feeding

I'm off to work in a minute and will be happy in the knowledge that my first ten minutes worth of earnings will feed a small child. Even a foreign one with funny coloured skin.

 

[che_don_john]

thats the fallacy of the right wing in a nutshell.
the rich are rich because they are better and/or work harder and the poor are poor because they are lazy and feckless.

Its bollocks but its the basis of right wing thought

You've kind of made a straw-man argument there, and your summary of right-wing political though is a tab over-simplistic.

My point wasn't to suggest that less well-off people are "lazy and feckless", nor did I even allude to such a point of view. Rather, I was arguing against this misconception that all people who are successful and wealthy have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths, or that someone has given them a hand-out or a leg-up.

There are plenty of people who have become successful through their own hard-work and accomplishment. To say that all people in the higher-rate tax bracket have been 'given' their wealth and position by society is s much a fallacy as saying that all people with lower-incomes are lazy and feckless.

What Pirate said is a good corollary of your own point. So, as you say, it might be a tad simplistic as a take on Right Wing thinking but, with respect, it seems to me that he's pretty much nailed your thinking. (At least, as demonstrated in that post).

Fair enough, perhaps I was a little over defensive, but I just wanted to make it clear that I was challenging the fallacy that all successful people necessarily come from privileged backgrounds or have been 'given' what they have by society, rather than suggesting that the less-well off were in such a position through laziness or stupidity.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

You've kind of made a straw-man argument there, and your summary of right-wing political though is a tab over-simplistic.

My point wasn't to suggest that less well-off people are "lazy and feckless", nor did I even allude to such a point of view. Rather, I was arguing against this misconception that all people who are successful and wealthy have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths, or that someone has given them a hand-out or a leg-up.

There are plenty of people who have become successful through their own hard-work and accomplishment. To say that all people in the higher-rate tax bracket have been 'given' their wealth and position by society is s much a fallacy as saying that all people with lower-incomes are lazy and feckless.

What Pirate said is a good corollary of your own point. So, as you say, it might be a tad simplistic as a take on Right Wing thinking but, with respect, it seems to me that he's pretty much nailed your thinking. (At least, as demonstrated in that post).

Fair enough, perhaps I was a little over defensive, but I just wanted to make it clear that I was challenging the fallacy that all successful people necessarily come from privileged backgrounds or have been 'given' what they have by society, rather than suggesting that the less-well off were in such a position through laziness or stupidity.

People are rich or poor for lots of reasons including inheritance, ambition, skill, education, intelligence, drive, etc, etc.

Poor people aren't necessarily stupid or the rich intelligent.

I think if you take the inheritance side away then it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that on average you get what you earn

 

[mad4city]

Inhertance, timing and opportunity, social circumstance, sheer dumb luck... you'd have to take all of those things out of it and even then, you'd need to decide how you define intelligence.
Is a violin playing surgeon necessarily more motivated intelligent than a struggling master violin maker and is that particular craftsman more more motivated and intelligent than the failed carpenter who built up a chain of lumber yards etc etc? Point is wealth, on its own, is no greater an indicator of intelligence and motivation than any of the factors ruled out at the beginning of this post.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

Inhertance, timing and opportunity, social circumstance, sheer dumb luck... you'd have to take all of those things out of it and even then, you'd need to decide how you define intelligence.
Is a violin playing surgeon necessarily more motivated intelligent than a struggling master violin maker and is that particular craftsman more more motivated and intelligent than the failed carpenter who built up a chain of lumber yards etc etc? Point is wealth, on its own, is no greater an indicator of intelligence and motivation than any of the factors ruled out at the beginning of this post.

All very true, but what we are talking about here is rich versus poor and with few exceptions, you need motivation and or intelligence to have the best chance of getting a wedge

 

[TangerineSteve17]

Fairness or unfairness is just thinking about other people enjoying their lives more than others. People will always get easier rides. Down to privilege/intelligence(or lack of)/understanding

No such thing as fair anyway. too many variables.

We did a Utopia thread a bit ago. People tried to envisage a world where everyone is equal. It is the most obvious thing to aspire about. You didn't ask to be born, and you have to play the game or cards you're dealt. to be conscious and to be aware of other conscious beings around you, must surely only lead to this. Unless you're a selfish bastard.

A fair game does not exist.

 

[mad4city]

Inhertance, timing and opportunity, social circumstance, sheer dumb luck... you'd have to take all of those things out of it and even then, you'd need to decide how you define intelligence.
Is a violin playing surgeon necessarily more motivated intelligent than a struggling master violin maker and is that particular craftsman more more motivated and intelligent than the failed carpenter who built up a chain of lumber yards etc etc? Point is wealth, on its own, is no greater an indicator of intelligence and motivation than any of the factors ruled out at the beginning of this post.

All very true, but what we are talking about here is rich versus poor and with few exceptions, you need motivation and or intelligence to have the best chance of getting a wedge

Pretty much the dying words of Lucky Luciano: "I wish I done it legit. It woulda been easier to do it legit."

He wasn't unitelligent or lacking in motivation. He also helped found one of the most successful empires in the world. Arguably, an empire that was/is an inevitable consequence of Capitalism.

 

[Balti]

everyone who voted labour has had much better life tbf

tories too

it makes a real difference

lol