Ferran Soriano & Txiki Begiristain

[BillyShears]

Yes it is a big catchment area but in all honesty it is not a hot bed of soccer either. Clearly the methodology at Southampton and the training of the players at an early age has a very positive influence on those players and ensures many continue to improve to fulfil their potential.

We are in a competitive catchment area but I am struggling to think of even one player from the locality, in the past five years, who has forged a decent career. If this is the case why do you think we are missing out? In days gone by Mee, Trippier, Sturridge have forged good careers for themselves. I am sure there are a couple but just cannot think of any.

Seems an odd choice of statement to make "not a hot bed of soccer".

Notwithstanding that Les Reed took over as head of the academy/scouting in 2010. Bale, Walcott, and Ox Chamberlain all predate his arrival and were brought in and scouted by different people.

Coaching definitely plays an integral part in a young players development but that takes time and it takes continuity. As I said earlier, it'll be a decade from when Abu Dhabi first bought City before we see IMO the fruits of their labour with regards the academy.

 

[Patientman63]

the biggest challenge is not talent spotting, but someone changing the attitude of what seems the majority of talented young English players, who fail to look after themselves properly, eat properly etc. Gareth Bale should be a role model but there are too many Wilshere's, Johnson's and Rooney's around who embarrass themselves on the world stage when they're all down with cramp and the ageing Italians are looking on bemused.

Let's be honest, we're pretty handy at producing talents that range from "completely full of themselves" to "complete and utter twats", it's a culture that I hope we are changing.

I remember a great article by Howard Wilkinson saying exactly this when he was manager of the England under 21's in 2000. Seems nowt has changed in 15 years.

 

[franksinatra]

I disagree, I'd say that rather than the quality of players we're producing regressing, the step from the youth teams to the first team is now enormous whereas when Micah, Studge, and Jonno first broke through they were probably close to our best players because the quality in our squad was so poor.

You cannot, under any circumstances, expect to see value from a youth system put in place slowly over a five year period, overnight. It's a stupid mindset to have. Look at the rags and their much vaunted youth system. How many of their current first team squad come from it?

You can put all the best coaches in place and sign all the best young players from around the country, there's still ZERO guarantee that they'll be good enough to play for your first team. In that sense the point of the academy is as much about having a production line of players you can sell to generate revenues as it is about providing the first team. The first team players IMO, will be one every three or four years maximum. And even that only after we've had a decade of development of technical coaching.

Completely agree the bar has been raised for our youth players. That is indisputable and so is the fact that producing the top quality players from the academy will become more difficult. However I still think the players being produced such as Sturridge, Richards, Johnson were an improvement on the players over the past five years. Even though our net for players and our ability to attract players has significantly increased. Richards was a regular starter in our championship winning year and I would argue Sturridge would be a starter alongside Aguero now. Sadly no player of late has been close to forcing themselves into the squad let alone a first team regular.

I am not an expert on the youth system but did go to the recent Chelsea v City game at Aldershot and in all honesty no player stood out like Sturridge did against Liverpool in the youth cup final. Hopefully the younger age groups (who appear to be doing very well) will provide some players worthy of a squad place or even as you say to produce revenue.

Thing is you're explaining your own gripe without realising it. In a different world, Lopes, Denayer, Rekik, they'd all be playing in our first team and we'd be going "wow check out the fruits of our academy". It's precisely because we are at the level we're at in the first team that you're not seeing players come through. This doesn't mean that we don't have very good players around, it just means that they're not quite good enough to play in our first team (yet).

Also, I don't really know what we did to 'produce' Sturridge. He came to us at 13 and was by all accounts that age already precociously talented. That was born out in the fact he immediately started scoring goals in our academy and breaking records. If you look at Richards, then his physical attributes were always the ones which brought him to the fore. Technically he was never a skilled player and his game intelligence has also always been lacking.

I do get what you are saying but in all honesty how much influence have we had in the production of those players?. The reason they made the move to Manchester is because they have been cherry picked by our scouts and recognised as top quality players at their age level, that is completely different to producing them. Lopes was 17 and a Portuguese Under 17 international, Rekik 16, Dutch Under 17 international, Denayer 18, Belgium Under 19 international. We have not developed them they were developed elsewhere. You cannot compare it to producing players like SWP, Onouha, Sturridge, Mee, Truipper etc.

It is folly to critique our influence on a 13 year old then comment on how we have been involved in the production of international players all 16 years plus.

 

[oakiecokie]

The youth system produced Micah, Michael Johnson and Sturridge in the five years prior to the takeover. if anything the quality of players has regressed not progressed. Difficult to say who is responsible but it is a point worth considering.

I disagree, I'd say that rather than the quality of players we're producing regressing, the step from the youth teams to the first team is now enormous whereas when Micah, Studge, and Jonno first broke through they were probably close to our best players because the quality in our squad was so poor.

You cannot, under any circumstances, expect to see value from a youth system put in place slowly over a five year period, overnight. It's a stupid mindset to have. Look at the rags and their much vaunted youth system. How many of their current first team squad come from it?

You can put all the best coaches in place and sign all the best young players from around the country, there's still ZERO guarantee that they'll be good enough to play for your first team. In that sense the point of the academy is as much about having a production line of players you can sell to generate revenues as it is about providing the first team. The first team players IMO, will be one every three or four years maximum. And even that only after we've had a decade of development of technical coaching.

Producing entire teams out of youth players is a complete myth anyway. If anyone thinks that by building a huge academy (which only opened a couple of months ago!!) we will suddenly see a team of full-blooded local mancs playing like Messi, you are so wrong. The actual thing about most academies is it is a total myth in itself that these academies actually produce anything anyway. I'd say only 5% of players at the top level actually go on to play in the league their club is in, even less will go on to play for their actual club at our level where it is probably only the odd player. Academies are essentially proving grounds where young players are put into a team and are given the best facilities and coaches but it is ultimately up to them to improve themselves and fulfill their potential. Producing quality players however is not about putting work in to an academy, it is all about the scouting network.

The REAL challenge in getting the best youth players through the system is finding them in the first place and that is where a global network of scouts comes into play. It is no longer a case of sending some bloke with a notepad to the local fields. City now need to have a global scouting presence and that is something that takes a considerable amount of time and effort. No academy of any size can compensate for that. The next world great player is out there somewhere but whether WE find him is completely down to luck and having someone in the right place at the right time. Messi for example wasn't wholly produced by Barcelona, he was scouted and everyone knew how good he could become, that comes with experience in the people who are scouting and it is no wonder they put so much effort in bringing him there. After that if you put someone with that level of potential training with world class players, they naturally raise to that level.

I don't know what City are doing on the scouting front but that is where the fruits of an academy come from, simply spending 100M on an academy is great but lets just say you cannot polish a turd. Of course it will help but the quality and breadth of scouting is what will decide on whether the academy produces great players or not. I'm sure a lot of our youth players are fantastic prospects but with the pressure to win trophies, only 1 or 2 will realistically make it to even a sniff of the first team. The rest of the gap will be filled by continuing to buy the best players, every single club in the world does it and we will not be any different.

Crewe Alex manage it every year.

 

[franksinatra]

Yes it is a big catchment area but in all honesty it is not a hot bed of soccer either. Clearly the methodology at Southampton and the training of the players at an early age has a very positive influence on those players and ensures many continue to improve to fulfil their potential.

We are in a competitive catchment area but I am struggling to think of even one player from the locality, in the past five years, who has forged a decent career. If this is the case why do you think we are missing out? In days gone by Mee, Trippier, Sturridge have forged good careers for themselves. I am sure there are a couple but just cannot think of any.

Seems an odd choice of statement to make "not a hot bed of soccer".

Notwithstanding that Les Reed took over as head of the academy/scouting in 2010. Bale, Walcott, and Ox Chamberlain all predate his arrival and were brought in and scouted by different people.

Coaching definitely plays an integral part in a young players development but that takes time and it takes continuity. As I said earlier, it'll be a decade from when Abu Dhabi first bought City before we see IMO the fruits of their labour with regards the academy.

Well it is not. I live in Hampshire and few kids play football in comparison to Manchester/Liverpool. Also Walcott was born in London and Bale in Wales. The Ox was from Portsmouth a similar distance from Manchester to Liverpool. Which brings me back to the point about their academy.

 

[BillyShears]

I do get what you are saying but in all honesty how much influence have we had in the production of those players?. The reason they made the move to Manchester is because they have been cherry picked by our scouts and recognised as top quality players at their age level, that is completely different to producing them. Lopes was 17 and a Portuguese Under 17 international, Rekik 16, Dutch Under 17 international, Denayer 18, Belgium Under 19 international. We have not developed them they were developed elsewhere. You cannot compare it to producing players like SWP, Onouha, Sturridge, Mee, Truipper etc.

It is folly to critique our influence on a 13 year old then comment on how we have been involved in the production of international players all 16 years plus.

How do you decide at which age group a player goes from being "developed" to being "cherry picked" ?

It's very clear that we are producing good players because they're out on loan doing well at other clubs in Europe. It's also clear that the players we used to produced were good players and although they were good enough for us when we were shit, at the level we're at now they're not good enough.

Ultimately I don't care where a player comes from or at what age they join us. I'm not one of those people who needs the bragging rights of "look at that Manc lad he's one of our own". Professional footballers are exactly that, professional footballers. SWP was one of our own until he fucked off to Chelsea. Sturridge the same. What i'd like is a youth system which is consistent in the qualities it teaches it's players. If the players are then good enough and strong enough mentally they will play for City's first team, if not they'll get sold.

I certainly wouldn't be criticising Ferran or Txiki because there aren't any youth team players in our current first team. That's shortsighted in the extreme (not that that's what you were doing, but just bring the discussion kind of back to the main thrust of the thread).

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

There are currently three players who I would say are absolutely nailed on in our Academy to become stars of the world game.

City are keeping their cards very close to their chest and are completely correct to keep the pressure off.

In saying that, my seven-year-old has started playing football at a competitive level over the last six months.

Every month there is a tournament for the entire Trafford and Cheshire area at the Soccer Dome next to the Trafford centre.

The clubs are shameless and the only one I have not seen are City.

Everton seem to be very active at offering kids the chance to train with them each week, and even have facilities based in Manchester for it.

United, as you would expect, seem to think all they have to do is turn up.

 

[franksinatra]

I do get what you are saying but in all honesty how much influence have we had in the production of those players?. The reason they made the move to Manchester is because they have been cherry picked by our scouts and recognised as top quality players at their age level, that is completely different to producing them. Lopes was 17 and a Portuguese Under 17 international, Rekik 16, Dutch Under 17 international, Denayer 18, Belgium Under 19 international. We have not developed them they were developed elsewhere. You cannot compare it to producing players like SWP, Onouha, Sturridge, Mee, Truipper etc.

It is folly to critique our influence on a 13 year old then comment on how we have been involved in the production of international players all 16 years plus.

How do you decide at which age group a player goes from being "developed" to being "cherry picked" ?

It's very clear that we are producing good players because they're out on loan doing well at other clubs in Europe. It's also clear that the players we used to produced were good players and although they were good enough for us when we were shit, at the level we're at now they're not good enough.

Ultimately I don't care where a player comes from or at what age they join us. I'm not one of those people who needs the bragging rights of "look at that Manc lad he's one of our own". Professional footballers are exactly that, professional footballers. SWP was one of our own until he fucked off to Chelsea. Sturridge the same. What i'd like is a youth system which is consistent in the qualities it teaches it's players. If the players are then good enough and strong enough mentally they will play for City's first team, if not they'll get sold.

I certainly wouldn't be criticising Ferran or Txiki because there aren't any youth team players in our current first team. That's shortsighted in the extreme (not that that's what you were doing, but just bring the discussion kind of back to the main thrust of the thread).

Well I think most people would think picking a player up at 17, who is representing his International side is much closer to the standard required of a professional footballer, than, for example bringing a 13 year old Sturridge into the academy, as many a promising kid has fallen by the wayside. I mean most people on this forum get annoyed when the press laud the ability of Januzaj and link it to United producing good young players from the academy. Like with Januzaj it is quite obvious they have been schooled elsewhere.

I also do not care where a player comes from, but can see the difference between the role of an academy when recruiting players at 12/13 in comparison to bringing in 17 year old. I agree though, and I stated in my first post. I do not necessarily blame Txiki or Ferran but cannot help but wonder why so few local players are coming through the academy. Just reading Tolmies post may put an interesting perspective on it. Enjoyable debate as always.

 

[carlos tevez is a blue]

Well, Negredo gave us 25 goals in a season and we made few bucks on him. That one is not bad I think.

Navas is giving us exactly what we paid for, you won't get better player for 15 mil. eur than him that easy.

Fernandinho is quality, he'll come back I hope, it's post WC season and he was never same after that German battering and injury he had in the second half of last season.

There's a lad at Southampton who cost about 2/3s of that and looks twice the player.

There's a lad that cost Southampton £1,000,000 that at this minute in time I'd take over Fernanddinho who cost 30x as much.

 

[Stoned Rose]

There are currently three players who I would say are absolutely nailed on in our Academy to become stars of the world game.

City are keeping their cards very close to their chest and are completely correct to keep the pressure off.

In saying that, my seven-year-old has started playing football at a competitive level over the last six months.

Every month there is a tournament for the entire Trafford and Cheshire area at the Soccer Dome next to the Trafford centre.

The clubs are shameless and the only one I have not seen are City.

Everton seem to be very active at offering kids the chance to train with them each week, and even have facilities based in Manchester for it.

United, as you would expect, seem to think all they have to do is turn up.

Interesting post. Any idea why city don't have a presence at these events?