Ferran Soriano & Txiki Begiristain

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pretty fair post from Damo, all I'll say though, is if you increase revenues, and sell more of your current squad, you have more to spend to make that £80m net, which is a fair figure.

Taking purely transfers, we sell £50m worth of talent in the summer, and aim for £80m net, then we can spend £130m, in a very simple, non-amortised view of things.

Thus, I don't agree that we can't, shouldn't or won't spend figures in the ball park of what we did, even bigger, at the start of the takeover. The only thing I think is fair is the net won't reach that high level.

I think we need a big summer of spending to bring in some top class players and rejuvenate the squad. Any signing the club makes will be intensely scrutinised this summer, as the pressure is now on to ensure that we can develop a squad that will win multiple honours in successive seasons.

We're lacking in key areas and I think we need some marquee signings to push on us, and we need to put our established stars under pressure.
 
I honestly think this "City brand" of football comes from Ferran and Txiki and I've mentioned it previously about affecting us in short term as it means we are predictable and will always try and outplay teams rather than targeting a weakness or trying to stop the opposition playing. However, whoever's decision it is to stand off teams and allow them to play round and through us while playing two up top needs their heads examining.

Barca game was bad enough, go 4-4-2 but then sit deep without ball and allow them time and space to pick and choose a pass, the second goal is perfect example, full back has all the time in the world IN OUR BOX to wait for Suarez to make a run and then pick him out, someone has to put him under pressure, it is schoolboy stuff.

Second half of yesterday's game was pathetic, with one pass time and time again they by-passed our midfield straight to Coutinho or Sterling or whoever, to pick up the ball, turn and then run at out back four, without even the slightest bit of pressure or someone trying to close the space or cut out the pass. Once or twice is bad enough, but it happened all second half. We took Dzeko off, played with only one up top (which left Aguero isolated) and still didn't stop it or even look like we tried to.

I was telling my Mrs after game that if a team was doing that on a park on a Sunday morning the manager would be going berserk to close off the space or stop the pass. At the moment we are doing pretty much the oppostie of what makes sense, if we play 4-4-2 fine but we have to press the ball and be attacking, do not sit back without the ball with 4-4-2. Or play 4-5-1, be more "defensive" and allow the opposition the ball, but close off all the space, play narrow and force them out wide.

To me that is utterly basic stuff, something you learn as a kid, it is just logical, if you play an attacking formation you have to go out and attack teams and try and win it back ASAP without the ball, or play more defensively, shut down space and play on the break. We are doing neither and means managers like Brenda know before the game "we'll exploit the space City give us as I know they will do precisely sod all to stop it happening."

Someone is doing a good impression of a person who doesn't understand the basics of football, you would think the amount of teams Pellegrini has managed he should understand the basics, but if it is coming from the board room what is the point of having a manger, just get them to pick the team!

Just don't get it, can accept getting beaten by better teams but cannot accept players like Jordan Henserson and Joe Allen passing the ball from their own half through our midfield for 45 minutes of football and no one twigging "shouldn't we be doing something to stop this?"
 
Re: Ferran Soriano & Txiki Begiristain

[quote="andyhinch
Got to agree with that, the old day's and the old ways are gone, not sure why people can't get used to it.[/quote]

Apart from sacking or fans calling for the manager to go
We used to sack managers for relegating us or for being near the bottom .
Now fans are calling for the bosses head if we don't win the League .
And Mancini would have been sacked even if we won the FA Cup
 
Damocles said:
Their job is not to go out and blow five hundred million quid every time we draw a game, their job is to continuously improve the squad piece by piece within the confines of their budget and their Academy prospects. This is exactly what Txiki is doing - every single signing he has made has improved the squad as a whole so the next manager and the one after that will have a team of sufficient quality for them to succeed with.

Managers build teams, DoFs build squads.

i don't disagree - the DOF's role is long term and in that respect he will be out live many of the managers and will be building a squad for the future.

Where I disagree is that i don't believe that every signing he has made has improved the squad. If that's part of his job then in my opinion he hasn't done this well - even considering the confines of our budget. I realise we can't blow millions like we used to but the fact remains we (under Txiki) haven't bought well in the market
 
casualdeyna said:
Someone is doing a good impression of a person who doesn't understand the basics of football, you would think the amount of teams Pellegrini has managed he should understand the basics, but if it is coming from the board room what is the point of having a manger, just get them to pick the team!

There is a problem here with how we discuss football.

It is a professional sport that involves rather a lot of decision making and training. Manuel Pellegrini is somebody who has not only trained in this discipline, but he has taken one the incredibly small number of top jobs in an ultra-competitive industry.

It is not a stretch to presume that he probably knows more about football, football tactics and how to win games than anybody on here. This however is never considered in people's thought processes. So when they feel that they have identified a problem, they are only seeing an overly simplistic view of the problem nor are they considering how addressing this problem will affect other areas of the game. The reason City pay Manuel Pellegrini several million pounds a year is because his judgement is better than ours and he knows more than we do.

That should be your starting point to any discussion of tactics and formations. You should be attempting to understand what he saw and why he played that way. You should also not attach things onto him that he could have no possible control over such as whether a particularly player decided to press his man or not.

Unfortunately one of the problems on here and in football fans in general is that they presume incompetence of the professionals and competence of the amateurs, then cannot fathom why the professionals haven't done something which they would have done.
 
Damocles said:
moomba said:
I'm not a fan of some of the things the club is doing but I can't imagine that Soriano would be under any pressure at all.

No pressure at all. By every single metric he isn't just doing ok, he is a huge success as an executive at City. He could be an unbelievable success and win the CL but that apart, every area of the club has had major success and growth in his time as CEO. There is no way in the world he is under even the slightest bit of pressure from anyone outside of a few posters on Bluemoon.

Things might look bad with the playing squad at the moment, but I think you need to look longer term with a DoF. Signings haven't set the world on fire, but it can take a bit of time for players to come to terms with things in a new club and country. You also need to look at signings made at youth level (presume Txiki has a hand in this),we might not see the benefits of his work for a few years yet.

I wonder sometimes if people don't "get" what Directors of Football do. They are a consequence of the incredibly short termism involved in managerial appointments and lifespans. Their job is not to go out and blow five hundred million quid every time we draw a game, their job is to continuously improve the squad piece by piece within the confines of their budget and their Academy prospects. This is exactly what Txiki is doing - every single signing he has made has improved the squad as a whole so the next manager and the one after that will have a team of sufficient quality for them to succeed with.

Managers build teams, DoFs build squads.

I do have some concerns that all of the senior people at the club are spreading themselves a bit thin looking after three/four clubs across the world. But I don't really know what sort of support has been put in place to manage that.

They tend to have their own CEOs/support staff locally. No different from any corporation have semi-autonomous business units inside of them really.

In short, I think a lot of the criticism the two are getting is over the top, and a bit reactionary given a pretty down season so far.

They sacked Mancini and came in using marketing-speak. Thus they made themselves a target to people who know almost nothing about what their job entails or how good or badly they are performing. It's the old passing-the-blame trick, you never want it to land on people you like so you keep going through the list of suspects until you find someone who have no feelings for one way or another and blame then. And of course someone is always to blame for every loss or draw, apparently even our executive team.

Nobody blames the Sheikh because he's universally loved. Same with Khaldoon. One saved the club, the other has a wonderful image in the community thanks to his calm and positive interviews. So this really leaves four groups - the players, the manager, the board or the flavour of the month.

We don't have a flavour of the month like Chappy or our medical team to blame at the moment so they are out of the window. People see Kompany have a bad game and follow their bad logic; can't blame Vincent Kompany for his performances as it must be the manager's fault. But then the manager who is now obviously useless was appointed by the board so it's the board's fault. But the board was appointed by the Chairman and Owner, and we can't blame then for anything so the board is the highest level of blame.

If Henderson would have hit the bar or Aguero would have nicked it inside the post nobody would be having this conversation. Apparently the executive team are only to blame when we drop points, any other time they are fine. The difference between "we're the best ever" and "sack the board" is the width of a post which is why I rarely contribute here any more as I don't feel they are anything but people pouring their impotent rage onto anything and everybody they can get away with. Considered opinions thought out have disappeared from here over the last couple of years and the answer to every problem, no matter how big or small, is to sack everybody and spend lots of money. I do wonder if we had garnered our success over 10 years of working hard at executive level rather than a huge outlay in the transfer market whether this would be different. The idea of working with players is not something ever considered by our fanbase, the idea of good and bad form for a player is gone entirely or at least bad form now equals "needs to be dropped and sold". Concepts like time to bed in are barely memorable, Bony has 10 pages of criticism and he hasn't even started a game. Either they are great or they are to be sold and we're going to spunk a bunch of money on somebody else like we're bored kids in a toy shop and footballers are the latest collectable for us.

WE WILL NEVER SPEND WHAT WE DID PREVIOUSLY EVER AGAIN.

People really, really, really need to understand this. Every single time that spending is mentioned by anybody connected to the club it is always referred to as "a period of accelerated, exceptional spending which will not be repeated". It was a one off to push us into the CL and title contention, from then on we ran a proper business and generally spend around £80m a year net give or take.

City will improve and they'll do it extremely simply. They will do it by having a philosophy of play which they adhere to when and wherever possible, and they will improve the squad inch by inch in a concerted and patient approach to putting together a squad and a club that can be in contention for the CL regularly. They will do this whether or not we lose to Liverpool or draw to Stoke. Their plans are bigger than the minutia of good and bad form and they won't be derailed by them outside of a huge fall from grace that challenges our top four place which only the morons think is possible. Coming second to Chelsea is not a disaster and Pellegrini is a coach that they both trust and admire, who shares their philosophy of how to do things.

Thank God some of this lot aren't in charge of City as the flapping over every dropped point is utterly ridiculous.

Having said the bit in bold i still predict this summer will be one of our biggest transfer windows since the take over
 
Damocles said:
casualdeyna said:
Someone is doing a good impression of a person who doesn't understand the basics of football, you would think the amount of teams Pellegrini has managed he should understand the basics, but if it is coming from the board room what is the point of having a manger, just get them to pick the team!

There is a problem here with how we discuss football.

It is a professional sport that involves rather a lot of decision making and training. Manuel Pellegrini is somebody who has not only trained in this discipline, but he has taken one the incredibly small number of top jobs in an ultra-competitive industry.

It is not a stretch to presume that he probably knows more about football, football tactics and how to win games than anybody on here. This however is never considered in people's thought processes. So when they feel that they have identified a problem, they are only seeing an overly simplistic view of the problem nor are they considering how addressing this problem will affect other areas of the game. The reason City pay Manuel Pellegrini several million pounds a year is because his judgement is better than ours and he knows more than we do.

That should be your starting point to any discussion of tactics and formations. You should be attempting to understand what he saw and why he played that way. You should also not attach things onto him that he could have no possible control over such as whether a particularly player decided to press his man or not.

Unfortunately one of the problems on here and in football fans in general is that they presume incompetence of the professionals and competence of the amateurs, then cannot fathom why the professionals haven't done something which they would have done.

But to take that line of logic one step further would mean that lay people would never question the authority and decision making of experts in any profession.
 
Damocles said:
I wonder sometimes if people don't "get" what Directors of Football do. They are a consequence of the incredibly short termism involved in managerial appointments and lifespans. Their job is not to go out and blow five hundred million quid every time we draw a game, their job is to continuously improve the squad piece by piece within the confines of their budget and their Academy prospects. This is exactly what Txiki is doing - every single signing he has made has improved the squad as a whole so the next manager and the one after that will have a team of sufficient quality for them to succeed with.

Whilst I agree with most of what you've written do you seriously believe this?
 
jknight said:
Where I disagree is that i don't believe that every signing he has made has improved the squad. If that's part of his job then in my opinion he hasn't done this well - even considering the confines of our budget. I realise we can't blow millions like we used to but the fact remains we (under Txiki) haven't bought well in the market

Mangala isn't our worst centre back, Sagna is better than Richards who wanted to go and Fernando looks to be better than Javi Garcia.

Every player improved the squad. People's problem is that they didn't improve what we think about as our first XI
 
chabal said:
But to take that line of logic one step further would mean that lay people would never question the authority and decision making of experts in any profession.

That's to reduce the argument to an absurd conclusion. People can question any authority and decision making in any profession. They should just presume competence of somebody who is an expert in the field that they aren't as their starting point.

What football fans do is the equivalent of going to a Doctor, seeing their diagnosis and presuming that because you watch a lot or ER or House then he is wrong and you've actually got Rhino Virus or Lupus or something.
 
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