FFP facing legal challenge (updated pg 12)

Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

enzoedinson said:
I'm going to try and defend FFP.

Why was FFP introduced? FFP is intended to prevent clubs from running major deficits year over year. We've seen this in club after club, rich owners pick a club, run huge deficits, and the team screws up and doesn't do what the owner hoped for, they sell or the club goes into administration. Seems like every week we hear a new story about a club that racked up a lot of debt and is in administration. It's unfortunate and something needed to be done. UEFA recognizes that for every Manchester City, who has a good owner who hires good people to actually make the goal a success, there are 5 or 10 failures. And then what you have a club taken away from the supporters on the whim of a billionaire who treated the club like a plaything. Portsmouth is an example, and I'm sure you can think of many others.

I've read through the thread and most arguments tend to be that this was all a conspiracy of the big clubs, even though at least half of the big clubs are in this position of racking up massive debt who would love to go along spending their fortunes propping up a club.

FFP exempts from its spending calculations money spent on infrastructure, which will encourage clubs to home-grow their talent over buying it on the market, and to build new stadiums and seek new revenue streams. Clubs can still buy on the market, but they will have to show that it's sustainable. It will really be like any other business where you have to grow at a sustainable pace --- UEFA is just mandating a sound business practice. Ensuring that all the clubs are not running major deficits is no different than bank regulators requiring banks to hold a certain percentage of deposits. Regulation is necessary.

Why is unlimited spending a bad thing? For one, it artificially inflates transfer fees and salaries, as the rich owners compete with each other for their favored players. And do you think the current system is "fair"? Clubs that consistently break even are completely disadvantaged against clubs that can fund unlimited deficits year over year. Eventually, the benefactor may get bored and leave. That can leave the club in an awful position. And of course, losing clubs means we lose history, entertainment value, culture, etc. etc. Imagine if you were a Rangers or Pompey fan. Through no fault of you or any other supporter, your club was fucked over by a rich **** and now you're in the shit. I wouldn't want to be in that position.

As for this lawyer guy, shame on all of you for not recognizing this guy has a vested interest in arguing these FFP rules are invalid. He can make millions trying to overturn them. Also, just because an attorney gives an opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. There are always two or three or four sides of an argument, and competition law is notoriously hard to predict because the rules are very theoretical and open to the whims of the court. Also, I would be very surprised if this was overturned. Cases often turn on the inherent justice of a law, and this law doesn't strike me as unjust in any way that a judge will care about. There are not enough restraints on either clubs or players to justify overturning it.

Finally, the real danger with FFP, as Arsene Wenger pointed out, is that big clubs will be able to challenge the rules through legal maneuvers and avoid the regulations altogether. You already see PSG trying every sneaky trick they can to circumvent them, and I can't even imagine what the Russian clubs will try. Our own deal with Etihad may be justified (as I think it probably is) because they are getting significant value from the name recognition they have now. But these fake commercial deals need to be addressed very seriously. That is the only plausible conspiracy theory I think could be a reality.

If FFP was brought in to stop clubs going to the wall then it would address the problem of debt, which it doesn't.

It could also include ways of spreading the money generated more evenly through the game, it doesn't.

It could try to level the playing field with measures such as a draft or a salary cap, it doesn't.

It stops people putting their own money into their own businesses, how would this have stopped a Portsmouth situation?

What it does is entrench the clubs with high revenue and prevent other clubs from challenging them, to think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

Oh, and why do these "fake commercial deals " need to be addressed so urgently, are they putting any clubs at risk.....?
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

enzoedinson said:
Our own deal with Etihad may be justified (as I think it probably is) because they are getting significant value from the name recognition they have now.
God (and I'm not religious) give me strength. It doesn't need to be justified on the grounds of fair value as it's not as subject to related party rules.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

the talisman said:
enzoedinson said:
I'm going to try and defend FFP.

Why was FFP introduced? FFP is intended to prevent clubs from running major deficits year over year. We've seen this in club after club, rich owners pick a club, run huge deficits, and the team screws up and doesn't do what the owner hoped for, they sell or the club goes into administration. Seems like every week we hear a new story about a club that racked up a lot of debt and is in administration. It's unfortunate and something needed to be done. UEFA recognizes that for every Manchester City, who has a good owner who hires good people to actually make the goal a success, there are 5 or 10 failures. And then what you have a club taken away from the supporters on the whim of a billionaire who treated the club like a plaything. Portsmouth is an example, and I'm sure you can think of many others.

I've read through the thread and most arguments tend to be that this was all a conspiracy of the big clubs, even though at least half of the big clubs are in this position of racking up massive debt who would love to go along spending their fortunes propping up a club.

FFP exempts from its spending calculations money spent on infrastructure, which will encourage clubs to home-grow their talent over buying it on the market, and to build new stadiums and seek new revenue streams. Clubs can still buy on the market, but they will have to show that it's sustainable. It will really be like any other business where you have to grow at a sustainable pace --- UEFA is just mandating a sound business practice. Ensuring that all the clubs are not running major deficits is no different than bank regulators requiring banks to hold a certain percentage of deposits. Regulation is necessary.

Why is unlimited spending a bad thing? For one, it artificially inflates transfer fees and salaries, as the rich owners compete with each other for their favored players. And do you think the current system is "fair"? Clubs that consistently break even are completely disadvantaged against clubs that can fund unlimited deficits year over year. Eventually, the benefactor may get bored and leave. That can leave the club in an awful position. And of course, losing clubs means we lose history, entertainment value, culture, etc. etc. Imagine if you were a Rangers or Pompey fan. Through no fault of you or any other supporter, your club was fucked over by a rich **** and now you're in the shit. I wouldn't want to be in that position.

As for this lawyer guy, shame on all of you for not recognizing this guy has a vested interest in arguing these FFP rules are invalid. He can make millions trying to overturn them. Also, just because an attorney gives an opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. There are always two or three or four sides of an argument, and competition law is notoriously hard to predict because the rules are very theoretical and open to the whims of the court. Also, I would be very surprised if this was overturned. Cases often turn on the inherent justice of a law, and this law doesn't strike me as unjust in any way that a judge will care about. There are not enough restraints on either clubs or players to justify overturning it.

Finally, the real danger with FFP, as Arsene Wenger pointed out, is that big clubs will be able to challenge the rules through legal maneuvers and avoid the regulations altogether. You already see PSG trying every sneaky trick they can to circumvent them, and I can't even imagine what the Russian clubs will try. Our own deal with Etihad may be justified (as I think it probably is) because they are getting significant value from the name recognition they have now. But these fake commercial deals need to be addressed very seriously. That is the only plausible conspiracy theory I think could be a reality.

If FFP was brought in to stop clubs going to the wall then it would address the problem of debt, which it doesn't.

It could also include ways of spreading the money generated more evenly through the game, it doesn't.

It could try to level the playing field with measures such as a draft or a salary cap, it doesn't.

It stops people putting their own money into their own businesses, how would this have stopped a Portsmouth situation?

What it does is entrench the clubs with high revenue and prevent other clubs from challenging them, to think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

Oh, and why do these "fake commercial deals " need to be addressed so urgently, are they putting any clubs at risk.....?

Is that not what lawyers do and has not Uefa just strenghtenned their legal team ready to argue.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

the talisman said:
enzoedinson said:
I'm going to try and defend FFP.

Why was FFP introduced? FFP is intended to prevent clubs from running major deficits year over year. We've seen this in club after club, rich owners pick a club, run huge deficits, and the team screws up and doesn't do what the owner hoped for, they sell or the club goes into administration. Seems like every week we hear a new story about a club that racked up a lot of debt and is in administration. It's unfortunate and something needed to be done. UEFA recognizes that for every Manchester City, who has a good owner who hires good people to actually make the goal a success, there are 5 or 10 failures. And then what you have a club taken away from the supporters on the whim of a billionaire who treated the club like a plaything. Portsmouth is an example, and I'm sure you can think of many others.

I've read through the thread and most arguments tend to be that this was all a conspiracy of the big clubs, even though at least half of the big clubs are in this position of racking up massive debt who would love to go along spending their fortunes propping up a club.

FFP exempts from its spending calculations money spent on infrastructure, which will encourage clubs to home-grow their talent over buying it on the market, and to build new stadiums and seek new revenue streams. Clubs can still buy on the market, but they will have to show that it's sustainable. It will really be like any other business where you have to grow at a sustainable pace --- UEFA is just mandating a sound business practice. Ensuring that all the clubs are not running major deficits is no different than bank regulators requiring banks to hold a certain percentage of deposits. Regulation is necessary.

Why is unlimited spending a bad thing? For one, it artificially inflates transfer fees and salaries, as the rich owners compete with each other for their favored players. And do you think the current system is "fair"? Clubs that consistently break even are completely disadvantaged against clubs that can fund unlimited deficits year over year. Eventually, the benefactor may get bored and leave. That can leave the club in an awful position. And of course, losing clubs means we lose history, entertainment value, culture, etc. etc. Imagine if you were a Rangers or Pompey fan. Through no fault of you or any other supporter, your club was fucked over by a rich **** and now you're in the shit. I wouldn't want to be in that position.

As for this lawyer guy, shame on all of you for not recognizing this guy has a vested interest in arguing these FFP rules are invalid. He can make millions trying to overturn them. Also, just because an attorney gives an opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. There are always two or three or four sides of an argument, and competition law is notoriously hard to predict because the rules are very theoretical and open to the whims of the court. Also, I would be very surprised if this was overturned. Cases often turn on the inherent justice of a law, and this law doesn't strike me as unjust in any way that a judge will care about. There are not enough restraints on either clubs or players to justify overturning it.

Finally, the real danger with FFP, as Arsene Wenger pointed out, is that big clubs will be able to challenge the rules through legal maneuvers and avoid the regulations altogether. You already see PSG trying every sneaky trick they can to circumvent them, and I can't even imagine what the Russian clubs will try. Our own deal with Etihad may be justified (as I think it probably is) because they are getting significant value from the name recognition they have now. But these fake commercial deals need to be addressed very seriously. That is the only plausible conspiracy theory I think could be a reality.

If FFP was brought in to stop clubs going to the wall then it would address the problem of debt, which it doesn't.

It could also include ways of spreading the money generated more evenly through the game, it doesn't.

It could try to level the playing field with measures such as a draft or a salary cap, it doesn't.

It stops people putting their own money into their own businesses, how would this have stopped a Portsmouth situation?

What it does is entrench the clubs with high revenue and prevent other clubs from challenging them, to think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

Oh, and why do these "fake commercial deals " need to be addressed so urgently, are they putting any clubs at risk.....?

Exactly. And to which you can add that the myth of clubs going to the wall, is just that, myth. They may pay the price in terms of relegation, they might have to rebrand, but I give you Portsmouth, Stockport, Newport, Plymouth Argyle, Chester, Rangers etc etc, all still plying their trade for better or worse.
"Protecting" little clubs from the bogus investor and dodgy chairmen is simply the hat that FFP is hung on to deflect attention away from its main aim, preventing clubs like City from threatening the revenue streams and trophy hauls of the super elite. FFS, ask yourself who came up with the idea. People like Gill and Rummenigge. Do you think they really give two shits about the financial plight of poor old Newport County, or do you think City forcing them to spend huge sums of money to keep us at bay might be the prime motivation?! Jeez, I swear there are some effing melonheads on this site.......
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

The talisman said:
enzoedinson said:
I'm going to try and defend FFP.

If FFP was brought in to stop clubs going to the wall then it would address the problem of debt, which it doesn't.

It could also include ways of spreading the money generated more evenly through the game, it doesn't.

It could try to level the playing field with measures such as a draft or a salary cap, it doesn't.

It stops people putting their own money into their own businesses, how would this have stopped a Portsmouth situation?

What it does is entrench the clubs with high revenue and prevent other clubs from challenging them, to think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

Oh, and why do these "fake commercial deals " need to be addressed so urgently, are they putting any clubs at risk.....?
I've cut out most of the original post for brevity but I doff my cap to you for an excellent response. Can't really add much more to it but there's one thing I can say.

There's a man called Brian Lomax who was one of the FA's representatives on the Financial Control Panel set up by UEFA to define FFP. He's a sensible guy who I spoke to some years back about supporter involvement in clubs and was very helpful. But I was staggered when he came back from a Financial Control Panel meeting and was asked for an update. He said then that the purpose of the regulations was to protect owners like the Glazers, who were risking capital they couldn't afford to lose, against owners like Sheikh Mansour, who could afford to risk and lose capital.

Surely they should primarily be protecting clubs against owners like the Glazers and Venkys, who put the assets and futures of their clubs at risk?
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

I do wonder if the challenges to FFPR are having to wait until some form of 'punishment' is handed down to a club because of the illogical/anti-competitive part of the rules.

It could mean that the challenge coms hand in hand with an injunction stopping the Cl from taking place until a decision is reached.

That would be incredibly damaging for UEFA in every sense and perhaps that is the point in delaying any challenge?
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

I may be wrong, but just from reading reports and interviews with Platini, it looked to me that when Platini first mooted the idea of FFP, it was arguably to try to stop clubs overspending and going out of business. It then seemed to take a very obvious turn once ADUG started spending masses of money and looking like they were going to make us a footballing super power. To be honest Platini seemed quite happy to admit that FFP was becoming about stopping rich owners from "buying success" and phrases like financial doping were openly being used. He even seemed quite happy to imply that it was directly due to what was happening at City that things were being changed. Certainly he has often been prepared to use us as an example, especially two or three years ago when our spending was at its peak. I'm not even sure Platini himself would try to pretend that it is still solely about protecting clubs from going to the wall.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

Prestwich_Blue said:
There's a man called Brian Lomax who was one of the FA's representatives on the Financial Control Panel set up by UEFA to define FFP. He's a sensible guy who I spoke to some years back about supporter involvement in clubs and was very helpful. But I was staggered when he came back from a Financial Control Panel meeting and was asked for an update. He said then that the purpose of the regulations was to protect owners like the Glazers, who were risking capital they couldn't afford to lose, against owners like Sheikh Mansour, who could afford to risk and lose capital.

Surely they should primarily be protecting clubs against owners like the Glazers and Venkys, who put the assets and futures of their clubs at risk?

That is a disgrace. I find it amazing that the game seems to be sleepwalking to a mode of protectionism secured with legislation which is being blindly accepted as beneficial to the game when it will do the opposite. It is corruption, plain and simple.

The article I originally posted did make it onto the BBC Football website,

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21958992" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21958992</a>

but disappeared very quickly the next day along with one or two links to websites publishing UEFAs response

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.itv.com/sport/football/article/2013-03-27/uefa-refute-lawyers-claims-over-financial-fair-play-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.itv.com/sport/football/artic ... lay-rules/</a>

A UEFA spokesman said: "UEFA is aware, that there are large differences between the comparative wealth of different clubs and countries, but financial fair play does not have financial equality as its objective.

"However, more investors should be attracted if club football is more sustainable and those clubs with sustainable and stable business models will be in a position to become more competitive."


Wht qualifies as a sustainable business model? Lumping massive amounts of debt on a club then bleeding it dry for 20 years? Obviously..
 

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