FFP facing legal challenge (updated pg 12)

Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

What gets me is how FFP is a blanket rule across nations yet each country is run differently.

In our country we have a north and south divide which means London clubs are able to get revenue via costs due to wealthier fans. Then you have taxation, if Monaco become a European giant in 10 years time how will FFP govern their low tax in comparison to ours which is 45% (I believe). Straight away Monaco get away with paying less wages due to tax whereas we have to make up higher wages to compete on an equal footing etc.

This wholw ruling has more holes than Rab C Nesbitts vest. Can't wait until a club takes Uefa to task over it in court.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

I think I will deal with Enzo red in son's post with my replies in bold. For the record in my limited years on this website it is possibly the worst reasoned and illogical post on here.

enzoedinson said:
I'm going to try and defend FFP.

Why was FFP introduced? FFP is intended to prevent clubs from running major deficits year over year. Wrong, marketed as such but really protectionism by indirect means. We've seen this in club after club, rich owners pick a club, run huge deficits, and the team screws up and doesn't do what the owner hoped for, they sell or the club goes into administration. Have been cases like that most notably Portsmouth but a well regulated fit and proper test would deal with this. Seems like every week we hear a new story about a club that racked up a lot of debt and is in administration. It's unfortunate and something needed to be done. Agreed but fit and proper test and ensuring that football clubs are run by people or at least employ people with a basic understanding of finance would be a start. UEFA recognizes that for every Manchester City, who has a good owner who hires good people to actually make the goal a success, there are 5 or 10 failures. And then what you have a club taken away from the supporters on the whim of a billionaire who treated the club like a plaything. Portsmouth is an example, and I'm sure you can think of many others. Actually United are a better example, revenues from the club are used to pay the owners debt and restrict the clubs spending and development. Portsmouth were purchased by a loudmouth spoofer with no real money brought in, debts created in the purchase were the problem there, not investment itself

I've read through the thread and most arguments tend to be that this was all a conspiracy of the big clubs, even though at least half of the big clubs are in this position of racking up massive debt who would love to go along spending their fortunes propping up a club. If the cap fits, the rules brought in should preserve the elite as they stand at present. It would suit people like the Glazers immensely if the rules were brought in as they could be the biggest fish without having to compete with big spending new boys like PSG or City.

FFP exempts from its spending calculations money spent on infrastructure, which will encourage clubs to home-grow their talent over buying it on the market, and to build new stadiums and seek new revenue streams. Funnily enought that should suit clubs in France where the Euros are due to be held, coincidental I'm sure. Clubs can still buy on the market, but they will have to show that it's sustainable. It will really be like any other business where you have to grow at a sustainable pace --- UEFA is just mandating a sound business practice. So Microsoft, Apple, Facebook or Amazon should really have restricted their own growth to lower levels to make sure it was sustainable? They should've stayed away from investors seeking to invest in the business even though those companies weren't making money at the time? Alarming logic there. Ensuring that all the clubs are not running major deficits is no different than bank regulators requiring banks to hold a certain percentage of deposits. Clubs that have been bank rolled by certain owners are showing no deficits at all. Also bank rgulations are also to ensure proper lending ratios etc. Rampant debt would be a problem for certain banks and many business but not for certain clubs under FFP. Regulation is necessary. True but not arbitrary rules that have one effect- to reduce outside investment. It's also called protectionism.

Why is unlimited spending a bad thing? For one, it artificially inflates transfer fees and salaries, as the rich owners compete with each other for their favored players. Why would transfer fees and salaries be artifically inflated. The market sets these levels no one else. And do you think the current system is "fair"? What system is Communism? Clubs that consistently break even are completely disadvantaged against clubs that can fund unlimited deficits year over year. Under the FFP system clubs that have deeper pockets will have an inbuilt systematic and perpetual advantage. Eventually, the benefactor may get bored and leave. That can leave the club in an awful position. Not the case where the deficits have been covered, though how many benefactors have got bored and abandoned their clubs? If costs exceed revenues the owner will most likely rationalise before a sale so they can at least have an assey to sell. And of course, losing clubs means we lose history, entertainment value, culture, etc. etc. Imagine if you were a Rangers or Pompey fan. Through no fault of you or any other supporter, your club was fucked over by a rich **** and now you're in the shit. Neither were f'ed over by a rich owner, the owners weren't rich enough and in both cases saddled the club with debt and in Rangers case there were additional legacy issues with respect to taxes. A robust fit and proper test would have solved both those issues. l don't want to be in that position. You needn't worry the Glazers aren't that bad really.

As for this lawyer guy, shame on all of you for not recognizing this guy has a vested interest in arguing these FFP rules are invalid. He can make millions trying to overturn them. It is an opinion piece, so funnily enough he has given an opinion. Also, just because an attorney gives an opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. There are always two or three or four sides of an argument, and competition law is notoriously hard to predict because the rules are very theoretical and open to the whims of the court. THE ECJ is not usually open to whim and I would think that in the circumstances he has given very clear rationale for his opinion. Also, I would be very surprised if this was overturned. Cases often turn on the inherent justice of a law, and this law doesn't strike me as unjust in any way that a judge will care about. There are not enough restraints on either clubs or players to justify overturning it. Your opinion of course but in mine this is utter, utter nonsense, possibly the clearest case of anti-competitive behaviour I have seen in a long time. There are reasons why it may take a long time before the ECJ is troubled with the case but any actions taken by a European wide body which have the effect of making inward investment difficult except for certain clubs, restrict the possible future earnings of certain clubs, are soft on debt but restrictive on investment and which have the effect of creating a cartel will always fall foul of the ECJ.

For example if the owners of all airlines in the EU brought in rules that limited similar investments in airlines, with guidelines based on the current revenues of the airlines with possible exclusions from certain airports for breaches of the regulations they would be thrown at the first instance at the ECJ.

Finally, the real danger with FFP, as Arsene Wenger pointed out, is that big clubs will be able to challenge the rules through legal maneuvers and avoid the regulations altogether. Because the rules are slightly arbitrary and badly drafted circumventing them shouldn't be difficult. You already see PSG trying every sneaky trick they can to circumvent them, and I can't even imagine what the Russian clubs will try. Why not the rules are designed to protect United, Bayern, Real et al good luck to PSG any anyone else who wants to get round them. Our own deal with Etihad may be justified (as I think it probably is) because they are getting significant value from the name recognition they have now. Don't you mean your deal with Chevy? But anyway Etihad are not an associated company as pointed out elsewhere under normal accounting standards. But these fake commercial deals need to be addressed very seriously. That is the only plausible conspiracy theory I think could be a reality.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

FFP does not address debt and would not prevent another Portsmouth happening. It does not make clubs more sustainable and nor does it tackle high wages. There has never been a successful business model which prohibits business owners from investing in their products. It is a complete nonsense dreamed up by the idiots who run football...most of whom have no business experience at any level and are just political puppets. What exactly are Platini's financial credentials? Virtually all football's financial problems have been caused by managerial incompetence (Leeds, Pompey) or leveraged buy-outs where people, who do not have enough of their own money, are allowed to take over clubs by borrowing against their new assets. A ban on leveraged buy-outs plus a more rigorous "fit and proper person's test" would solve most of the problems. Wages controls, assuming they could be co-ordinated worldwide, would also be a great help to creating a flatter pitch. It is only clubs like United and Bayern Munich who don't want a flat pitch.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

Hopefully this just delays FFP being implemented for a few years, thus allowing us to make the final steps in improving our squad, without restriction, before raising the drawbridge to the castle which is the Champions League.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

kenzie115 said:
Hopefully this just delays FFP being implemented for a few years, thus allowing us to make the final steps in improving our squad, without restriction, before raising the drawbridge to the castle which is the Champions League.

Preventing shareholders and owners investing in the clubs/companies is simply contrary to English and European law. It won't delay FFPR, this will prevent it. The Sheikh will not spend on the level he has over the years since 2008 because that spending was for a purpose which has been achieved. Policy now concentrates on long term sustainability.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

rag_hater said:
the talisman said:
enzoedinson said:
I'm going to try and defend FFP.

Why was FFP introduced? FFP is intended to prevent clubs from running major deficits year over year. We've seen this in club after club, rich owners pick a club, run huge deficits, and the team screws up and doesn't do what the owner hoped for, they sell or the club goes into administration. Seems like every week we hear a new story about a club that racked up a lot of debt and is in administration. It's unfortunate and something needed to be done. UEFA recognizes that for every Manchester City, who has a good owner who hires good people to actually make the goal a success, there are 5 or 10 failures. And then what you have a club taken away from the supporters on the whim of a billionaire who treated the club like a plaything. Portsmouth is an example, and I'm sure you can think of many others.

I've read through the thread and most arguments tend to be that this was all a conspiracy of the big clubs, even though at least half of the big clubs are in this position of racking up massive debt who would love to go along spending their fortunes propping up a club.

FFP exempts from its spending calculations money spent on infrastructure, which will encourage clubs to home-grow their talent over buying it on the market, and to build new stadiums and seek new revenue streams. Clubs can still buy on the market, but they will have to show that it's sustainable. It will really be like any other business where you have to grow at a sustainable pace --- UEFA is just mandating a sound business practice. Ensuring that all the clubs are not running major deficits is no different than bank regulators requiring banks to hold a certain percentage of deposits. Regulation is necessary.

Why is unlimited spending a bad thing? For one, it artificially inflates transfer fees and salaries, as the rich owners compete with each other for their favored players. And do you think the current system is "fair"? Clubs that consistently break even are completely disadvantaged against clubs that can fund unlimited deficits year over year. Eventually, the benefactor may get bored and leave. That can leave the club in an awful position. And of course, losing clubs means we lose history, entertainment value, culture, etc. etc. Imagine if you were a Rangers or Pompey fan. Through no fault of you or any other supporter, your club was fucked over by a rich **** and now you're in the shit. I wouldn't want to be in that position.

As for this lawyer guy, shame on all of you for not recognizing this guy has a vested interest in arguing these FFP rules are invalid. He can make millions trying to overturn them. Also, just because an attorney gives an opinion, doesn't mean it's correct. There are always two or three or four sides of an argument, and competition law is notoriously hard to predict because the rules are very theoretical and open to the whims of the court. Also, I would be very surprised if this was overturned. Cases often turn on the inherent justice of a law, and this law doesn't strike me as unjust in any way that a judge will care about. There are not enough restraints on either clubs or players to justify overturning it.

Finally, the real danger with FFP, as Arsene Wenger pointed out, is that big clubs will be able to challenge the rules through legal maneuvers and avoid the regulations altogether. You already see PSG trying every sneaky trick they can to circumvent them, and I can't even imagine what the Russian clubs will try. Our own deal with Etihad may be justified (as I think it probably is) because they are getting significant value from the name recognition they have now. But these fake commercial deals need to be addressed very seriously. That is the only plausible conspiracy theory I think could be a reality.

If FFP was brought in to stop clubs going to the wall then it would address the problem of debt, which it doesn't.

It could also include ways of spreading the money generated more evenly through the game, it doesn't.

It could try to level the playing field with measures such as a draft or a salary cap, it doesn't.

It stops people putting their own money into their own businesses, how would this have stopped a Portsmouth situation?

What it does is entrench the clubs with high revenue and prevent other clubs from challenging them, to think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

Oh, and why do these "fake commercial deals " need to be addressed so urgently, are they putting any clubs at risk.....?

Is that not what lawyers do and has not Uefa just strenghtenned their legal team ready to argue.


Good that he does as WE have a vested interest. May not be the same but if hes happy we are happy.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

kenzie115 said:
Hopefully this just delays FFP being implemented for a few years, thus allowing us to make the final steps in improving our squad, without restriction, before raising the drawbridge to the castle which is the Champions League.
"Raising the drawbridge" is exactly what the established big clubs are trying to do to us. I don't want City to do to smaller clubs what the Shite are trying to do to us. We're better than that.

We should be arguing for a free market in football, the same as it has been for the last 50 years or whenever it was the maximum wage was abolished. I don't want City to be part of a bullying cartel who invent rules to suit themselves and fuck everyone else over. I want us to win, but winning is hollow if you change the rules so that you've got a huge advantage over your competition.

I want us to win fair and square. Unfortunately it seems 2012 might be the last ever league title won in a free market Premier League.
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

They new it wouldn't stop us it was to late what it does is stop another wealthy owner buying a club and spending billions to displace say the rags from top 4 thats why!
 
Re: Wall St Journal Article on FFP

Shaelumstash said:
kenzie115 said:
Hopefully this just delays FFP being implemented for a few years, thus allowing us to make the final steps in improving our squad, without restriction, before raising the drawbridge to the castle which is the Champions League.
"Raising the drawbridge" is exactly what the established big clubs are trying to do to us. I don't want City to do to smaller clubs what the Shite are trying to do to us. We're better than that.

We should be arguing for a free market in football, the same as it has been for the last 50 years or whenever it was the maximum wage was abolished. I don't want City to be part of a bullying cartel who invent rules to suit themselves and fuck everyone else over. I want us to win, but winning is hollow if you change the rules so that you've got a huge advantage over your competition.

I want us to win fair and square. Unfortunately it seems 2012 might be the last ever league title won in a free market Premier League.

Totally agree. Anything won by Europe's cartel from here on in will always be tainted in my eyes. What irritates me most is the criticism of City with no comeback whatsoever from the club,we just seem to be pandering to the very clubs that instigated these rules.
 

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