Friedrich Engels statue

[Ancient Citizen]

Becoming a communist or even to some small degree a facist (in the roman sense) doesn't mean you necessarly become totalitarian, which hitler, franco, stalin, pol pot etc were.

I understand what you're saying, and on an individual, personal level it may be correct. However,
every single country that adopted communism has become a totalitarian state, in every sense of the word.
None of them, has adopted the supposed egalitarian philosophy propounded by Engels, each and every one
has turned into oppressive, poverty stricken hellholes. China is now vibrant economically because it has unofficially
abandoned this system, yet keeps controlling, stifling bit at the top end.
So, if the result of the Marx/Engels venture was misery everywhere it was implemented, what exactly is laudable about it?
I would suggest that the idea itself is so flawed, it actively encouraged the individuals who exploited it.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Some ideas are worse than others but the idea capitalism is some how superior to communism isn't a black and white answer... at best.

I couldn't disagree more, capitalism is superior in every single way to communism, yes it has flaws,doesn't
everything, but communism has caused poverty and misery in every single place it's been implemented.

 

[urban genie]

Getting off topic a bit, but the Bible written in the 4th century?

When do you think it was written?

The books old testament was written over a span of 800 years with the last one in about 1st cemtury bc.

A greek version of the book of Matthew is the oldest known gospel around 70 AD, and between then and 340AD other text are written, still mainly in greek.
A full complete works that is intact is still kept in the vatican and was written around 350AD and that is the oldest known full Bible so yes 4th century.

Their is a 1000 years previous to tgat of books and scriptures though.

 

[urban genie]

I understand what you're saying, and on an individual, personal level it may be correct. However,
every single country that adopted communism has become a totalitarian state, in every sense of the word.
None of them, has adopted the supposed egalitarian philosophy propounded by Engels, each and every one
has turned into oppressive, poverty stricken hellholes. China is now vibrant economically because it has unofficially
abandoned this system, yet keeps controlling, stifling bit at the top end.
So, if the result of the Marx/Engels venture was misery everywhere it was implemented, what exactly is laudable about it?
I would suggest that the idea itself is so flawed, it actively encouraged the individuals who exploited it.

Communism and the communist manifesto, which is more the musings of what comes after capitalism and how nations could evolve into egalitarian utopias rather than a book on how to run a country main flaw is that it doesn't take human nature into consideration, and unfotunately we probably are not natured as a species to deliver it.

It's watered down version socialism has worked in some places, but alas I feel Engels ideas may be centuries ahead of our times , more of a dream of what could (or should) be, than an instruction book for the present.


That is why it seems to fail imho.


I would say Vietnam seems to be one place that has found balance from my time there but I admit I don't know enough about the place politically now to say for sure.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Communism and the communist manifesto, which is more the musings of what comes after capitalism and how nations could evolve into egalitarian utopias rather than a book on how to run a country main flaw is that it doesn't take human nature into consideration, and unfotunately we probably are not natured as a species to deliver it.

It's watered down version socialism has worked in some places, but alas I feel Engels ideas may be centuries ahead of our times , mmore of a dream of what could (or should) be, than an instruction book.

That's why it has failed imho.

Yep, agree with that.
It was a utopian dream that has a major flaw in it's conception that was never addressed.

 

[Southbanken]

I understand what you're saying, and on an individual, personal level it may be correct. However,
every single country that adopted communism has become a totalitarian state, in every sense of the word.
None of them, has adopted the supposed egalitarian philosophy propounded by Engels, each and every one
has turned into oppressive, poverty stricken hellholes. China is now vibrant economically because it has unofficially
abandoned this system, yet keeps controlling, stifling bit at the top end.
So, if the result of the Marx/Engels venture was misery everywhere it was implemented, what exactly is laudable about it?
I would suggest that the idea itself is so flawed, it actively encouraged the individuals who exploited it.

I couldn't disagree more, capitalism is superior in every single way to communism, yes it has flaws,doesn't
everything, but communism has caused poverty and misery in every single place it's been implemented.

You have to consider the conditions in which the communist experiment took place however, remembering that the "right thinking" capitalist "free world" fear and loathe the very thought of communism, if communism had ever proved a success in any small corner of the world, it would potentially spell the end of the capitlism and class ridden society that we live in. Therefore the elite and powerful in the rest of the world have absolutely no desire to see communism succeed, even in its true form.

This means that no communist nation was let in peace so they could implement the system and all the countries which tried to go for communism were forced to stay in a State Capitalist + Social Welfare format, keep militarizing and stay in a state of pending war to defend themselves.

And to the other point one could easily say that capitalism has killed more, and is still killing countless millions of people all around the world, therefore to use the number of people "killed" by communism as an argument whilst simple is spurious, ineffective and simply makes you look ignorant, biased or both.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

No; not recently, but I am aware of it. Basically a catalogue of atrocities carried out by various communist/marxist states. Now, Engels was the driving force behind Marxism (with Marx, obviously). If I remember my history lessons from the stone ages, didn't he spend time in sunny Manchester (google would probably tell me, but that's the lazy way out). Engels was no angel, but it's a stretch to mention him in the same breath as Hitler. What I do agree with you though is that communism, in it's most extreme form, was just as bad as fascism. Both ideologies (again, in their extreme forms) were/are failures.

I seem to recall Marx parking his fat arse down the British Museum, or was it the British Library - I never will know the difference. And don't tell me one's a museum and t'other is a library. So it stands to ill-reason that Freddie parked his ample arse down the Central Library in St Peter's Square.

I find it curious that Marx has what must be one of the biggest tombstones in Highgate Cemetery - a district of London that would stretch the finances of modern day footballers. (Just thought I'd get back on track a bit!)

 

[jimharri]

I seem to recall Marx parking his fat arse down the British Museum, or was it the British Library - I never will know the difference. And don't tell me one's a museum and t'other is a library. So it stands to ill-reason that Freddie parked his ample arse down the Central Library in St Peter's Square.

I find it curious that Marx has what must be one of the biggest tombstones in Highgate Cemetery - a district of London that would stretch the finances of modern day footballers. (Just thought I'd get back on track a bit!)

Museums and libraries? That's all a bit highbrow for me.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Museums and libraries? That's all a bit highbrow for me.

Museums and libraries, Jim, are the lifeblood of we FOCs in CBL3. There's only a few places where you'd catch us - CBL3, a museum, a library and, er, that's our business!

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You have to consider the conditions in which the communist experiment took place however, remembering that the "right thinking" capitalist "free world" fear and loathe the very thought of communism, if communism had ever proved a success in any small corner of the world, it would potentially spell the end of the capitlism and class ridden society that we live in. Therefore the elite and powerful in the rest of the world have absolutely no desire to see communism succeed, even in its true form.

This means that no communist nation was let in peace so they could implement the system and all the countries which tried to go for communism were forced to stay in a State Capitalist + Social Welfare format, keep militarizing and stay in a state of pending war to defend themselves.

And to the other point one could easily say that capitalism has killed more, and is still killing countless millions of people all around the world, therefore to use the number of people "killed" by communism as an argument whilst simple is spurious, ineffective and simply makes you look ignorant, biased or both.

So basically, communism didn't succeed because the evil capitalists wouldn't let it.
Nobody stopped the Soviet Union from implementing the system, Nazism tried, failed, then the soviets forced occupied
territories into the same ideology. It failed because of what it is, a stifling, repressive, inefficient, poverty creating
nightmare that makes no sense economically, and because sound economics drive prosperity, it collapsed in 1989.
Nobody ever fled from West Germany to the East, simply because living under communism was a dreadful experience,
It sounds nicely egalitarian when propounded by a millionaire mill owner, assisted by one many consider to be a skiving
layabout, but as soon as it came into being, power to the people never ensued, power to the chosen few did.