General Election - December 12th, 2019

[Chippy_boy]

A disagreement I had with my best mate, who is avid remain.

The EU is a Capitalist club and only by leaving that club could a true Socialist government enact real Socialist policies without Capitalist restraint was the argument, one I have real sympathy with as well, but you are correct that the danger of leaving the Capitalist club is that the UK is free to be even more Capitalist. Its why I would have definitely have voted leave if we withdrew under a Labour Government but couldn't bring myself to vote leave under the current government allied with the Faragists. They desire a neo-liberal utopia and an economic system akin to that of the USA, which I believe is alien to the UK because of our traditions of the NHS and Welfare state. Austerity laid the ground work for a quick and easy move to the American economic model based on the level of spend of GDP. Ours almost mirrors there's already.

Whether Capitalism is evil or not is another argument but I certainly think it lacks compassion.

I wonder if it is humanly possible to be more wrong than the above? I truly doubt it.

If we are to leave the EU and not in a BRINO, then it is absolutely imperative that we have an economy as open and inviting to external investment as is conceivably possible. An environment where we can be as efficient as possible and as competitive as possible.

Because if we do not do that, and we have to compete for investment and for business outside the comfy trading environment within the EU, we are really truly completely and utterly fucked.

In the open market, who would buy goods which are more expensive than others, for the same quality level? Who would choose to invest in the UK in order to export into Europe, as opposed to just investing in Europe? We would be fucked.

And then look at Labour's proposed policies. For example, unilaterally raising corporation tax, limiting exec pay, strengthening workers rights, increasing labour costs, decreasing employment flexibility, abolishing zero hours contracts, relaxing controls over industrial action. I could go on.

Now you can if you like debate the merits or otherwise if these proposals. But what is absolutely clear is that you could not draw up a better set of proposals if your objective was to fuck the UK over, utterly and completely.

If we were to leave the EU - properly leave - under a Corbyn government, this country would be destroyed. We'd be significantly impoverished, FOREVER!

 

[Chippy_boy]

I might add that it looks very much like we only get to leave on a hard Brexit if and only if, we are run by a right wing Tory government.

In which circumstances, workers rights would be screwed, but at least the whole country wouldn't be totally wrecked.

 

[DelToro]

I wonder if it is humanly possible to be more wrong than the above? I truly doubt it.

If we are to leave the EU and not in a BRINO, then it is absolutely imperative that we have an economy as open and inviting to external investment as is conceivably possible. An environment where we can be as efficient as possible and as competitive as possible.

Because if we do not do that, and we have to compete for investment and for business outside the comfy trading environment within the EU, we are really truly completely and utterly fucked.

In the open market, who would buy goods which are more expensive than others, for the same quality level? Who would choose to invest in the UK in order to export into Europe, as opposed to just investing in Europe? We would be fucked.

And then look at Labour's proposed policies. For example, unilaterally raising corporation tax, limiting exec pay, strengthening workers rights, increasing labour costs, decreasing employment flexibility, abolishing zero hours contracts, relaxing controls over industrial action. I could go on.

Now you can if you like debate the merits or otherwise if these proposals. But what is absolutely clear is that you could not draw up a better set of proposals if your objective was to fuck the UK over, utterly and completely.

If we were to leave the EU - properly leave - under a Corbyn government, this country would be destroyed. We'd be significantly impoverished, FOREVER!

Writing FOREVER in block capitals was the clincher for me.

 

[George Hannah]

Revoking and re-invoking after a period of consultation and reflection has to be the most sensible way forward (if practically possible).

I've been convinced of that since March, the kindest thing would be for BoJo's mates in the EU to veto the extension and the Remainer majority would have to revoke. Otherwise I might have to vote for your pinup Ms Swinson.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I've been convinced of that since March, the kindest thing would be for BoJo's mates in the EU to veto the extension and the Remainer majority would have to revoke. Otherwise I might have to vote for your pinup Ms Swinson.

I do wonder if revoking on that basis would pass the 'good faith' test, applied by the ECJ though.

 

[George Hannah]

I do wonder if revoking on that basis would pass the 'good faith' test, applied by the ECJ though.

I'm not familiar with that. Good faith is not something I associate with the EU or the ECJ normally, Ms Swinson was getting very excited about the possibility last night - her promontories were quivering at the thought.

 

[mayo31]

I might add that it looks very much like we only get to leave on a hard Brexit if and only if, we are run by a right wing Tory government.

In which circumstances, workers rights would be screwed, but at least the whole country wouldn't be totally wrecked.

Would you accept that?

 

[George Hannah]

Revoking A50, reflecting and trying again is the best strategic option as long as we do have the debate on what and why we are doing it (or not doing it as the case may be). @George Hannah concurs on this as well (apologies if I’m wrong).

That it is the only sensible option left virtually guarantees we will not take this option. Right now on Brexit the U.K. is this guy...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-49641063

we've all been there - nearly :)

 

[Chippy_boy]

Would you accept that?

No, I'm a Remainer.

But if we did have to leave on a hard Brexit (which looks very unlikely now thankfully) we could not possibly at the same time introduce a bunch of left wing policies. It would see us all worse off, out of work and basically completely screwed, faster than you could say Jack Robinson.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Writing FOREVER in block capitals was the clincher for me.

Excellent.