General Election - December 12th, 2019

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

You may be unfamiliar with this concept of "tendency"? I mentioned it earlier but guess it must have confused you.

Tendency? I woud have thought it was certainty but then I am from a thick working class background, so what can you expect?

 

[BobKowalski]

Iceland are also not fully in the EU but they are seeing good growth and have similar living standards to Norway. The EU is not the be all and end all of everything.

Having a say is over-rated, we have had a say for half a century and look how it has helped us. If we can leave the EU and sign trade deals then we are choosing to have a say in another aspect that we currently have no say so there isn't a big difference.

Iceland is not in the EU because Iceland's major export is fishing and EU membership would resign fishing controls to the EU.

The reason the Nordic countries are heralded so highly is because they don't care about EU politics. They only care about putting their own people first and doing what is best for them first. This is why they are part in the EU and part not for the bits they hold as important to keep.

Our various governments haven't put us first for decades and that is why we are talking of Brexit instead of talking about how we implement policies supported by our strengths for the better of everyone.

Iceland is in the Single Market. Russia aside there isn’t a major European country that isn’t in the Single Market or trying to get in the Single Market or for that matter smaller European countries trying to get into the EU. The European economy is a continental market and everyone including us is plugged into it which is how it should be as when we had a say we were the ones pushing for it and designed it.

We can do trade deals if you want. They seem to be more about a dick measuring contest then about trade because we have excellent trade deals at the moment but these aren’t good enough apparently. They have to be negotiated by us. You know the same country that took three years to negotiate two Withdrawal Agreements on three topics which ended with us conceding on all three. Yay. Go team GB. I would say ‘Go team UK’ but unfortunately we left NI in the EU so they couldn’t join us. They have sent us a very nice note though.

 

[Ban-jani]

Iceland are also not fully in the EU but they are seeing good growth and have similar living standards to Norway. The EU is not the be all and end all of everything.

Having a say is over-rated, we have had a say for half a century and look how it has helped us. If we can leave the EU and sign trade deals then we are choosing to have a say in another aspect that we currently have no say so there isn't a big difference.

Iceland is not in the EU because Iceland's major export is fishing and EU membership would resign fishing controls to the EU.

The reason the Nordic countries are heralded so highly is because they don't care about EU politics. They only care about putting their own people first and doing what is best for them first. This is why they are part in the EU and part not for the bits they hold as important.

Our various governments haven't put us first for decades and that is why we are talking of Brexit instead of talking about how we implement policies supported by our strengths for the better of everyone.

Of course they’ve seen good growth, they’re in the Single Market. In case you missed it 99.99% of Leavers want us to leave it and Johnson’s deal is to leave it and the Customs Union.

And fishing is 0.12% of our GDP so how is that going to help us? How is being outside the EU going to help our services sector which is a whopping 80% of our GDP?

Iceland are in EFTA too, as are Switzerland and Lichtenstein.

I’ll repeat, it’s worse to be an EFTA member as you are a rule taker but you still take the vast majority of regulations that the EU set.

I thought that Brexit was all about taking back control and forging our own way? How is being a rule taker from the EU that?

In the space of 200 years we’ll have gone from the most powerful nation on earth to a country that has the likes of Bulgaria and Lithuania voting on our regulations whilst we get no say.

Fucking marvellous lads, well done.

 

[Fame Monster]

Sadly you are correct, and there will probably be enough people who will fall for it to hand Johnson the election.

Problem is there's one thing worse than having someone leading the country who has links to terrorist organisations, tolerates anti-Semitism and would have a Marxist as chancellor, and that is having a leader who would sell off the country to the highest bidder with the enthusiastic backing of his party.

Corbyn may be my second worst choice as PM but he is way ahead of my last choice. At least the PLP and likely coalition partners would prevent him and McDonnell from doing too much harm whilst the Tory MPs would give Johnson their full support in his attempts to feather the nests of his backers at the expense of much of the population.

If there's going to be a coalition to prop Labour up, it's going to involve the SNP. Even if the terms of going into coalition isn't another referendum on Scottish Independence (which it no doubt would be), they've consistently clocked up a deficit 7 times bigger than that of the UK and the biggest in the EU. The idea that they will be a moderating influence is fanciful.

As for the PLP wielding control, most policy doesn't go through Parliament these days and the PLP are terrified of deselection anyway so I'm not sure how much influence they'd wield.

I don't disagree that a strong Johnson Government would be a disaster but the saving grace (or not) is that after 40 years of Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Cameron, there is almost nothing to sell off anyway. So I'm not sold on the idea that Corbyn and the SNP would be any better: in fact, I think they'd be a lot worse.

Thankfully, you don't have to vote for either of them.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Upper division of second class honours in both cases - not to be sniffed at but neither is a first in Management Science at the LSE or indeed leaving a trade union course at North London Poly after a series of arguments with tutors over the curriculum. They all did very well and made their parents proud I'm sure.

Indeed not and there are very few qualifications that should be sniffed at. My singular point was that the perpetuation of Eton/Oxford types into positions of privelidge has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with position and influence. The poster I was replying to thinks that having wealthy parents makes you 'more able' and therefore more likely to suceed. Sadly it is just the latter.

 

[BobKowalski]

Wonder where we've heard that before, politicians "knowing EU membership is better" but the public disagree and vote against it?

Full membership is better than a de facto membership. Whether the public agree or not is irrelevant. As full members you get perks. As de facto members you get instructions handed to you. As full members we get rebates. As de facto members (which we will be under the terms of the WA) we pay full rate.

Personally not arsed which membership model we end up with. I couldn’t care less if we have a say or not but then I wasn’t moaning about the EU in the first place.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

If there's going to be a coalition to prop Labour up, it's going to involve the SNP. Even if the terms of going into coalition isn't another referendum on Scottish Independence (which it no doubt would be), they've consistently clocked up a deficit 7 times bigger than that of the UK and the biggest in the EU. The idea that they will be a moderating influence is fanciful.

As for the PLP wielding control, most policy doesn't go through Parliament these days and the PLP are terrified of deselection anyway so I'm not sure how much influence they'd wield.

I don't disagree that a strong Johnson Government would be a disaster but the saving grace (or not) is that after 40 years of Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Cameron, there is almost nothing to sell off anyway. So I'm not sold on the idea that Corbyn and the SNP would be any better: in fact, I think they'd be a lot worse.

Thankfully, you don't have to vote for either of them.

You are aware that should Scotland gain independence they will also control the oil revenues generated from their waters .... forecast to last 25 years. And would wipe out their deficits in year 1.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Absolutely correct but I would say on here is nowhere near as bad as Twitter or Facebook, and I’ve deleted both of my accounts from those poisonous platforms.

You’re right about the road rage point, it’s a good analogy and I’ve said recently things would be much more diplomatic face to face, even if you’re like me and very confident when talking (gob shite).

Being behind a screen and not in person does tend to allow for more rudeness and confrontation to points.

It also stops you assessing the other bloke as well. I am sure that many of the people I disagree with on here, I would get on with famously in person. Equally, some people I seem to gel with would think I was an absolute arse, if they met me..........

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I think there will be ultimately - as we see ever further use of AI and of robots, the value of human effort will be steadily diminished with a corresponding concentration of increasing wealth in a smaller and smaller group of people. Ultimately it will snap. But I think this is many decades away.

Clive Lewis was on just now decrying the existence of any billionaires at all. Whilst I get his point about the inequality and undesirability of seeing people sleeping rough whilst a few have a billion, he hasn't really thought it through. Billionaires don't become billionaires overnight. First they have millions and then tens of millions. And if you start taxing them too much, they bugger off. Or maybe they just stop growing their business and creating new jobs because they can't be arsed because the rewards for doing so will be taken away. So the idea we can simply take millions more off these people is flawed.

Until there is global coordination about this, any unilateral efforts on our part would be counter productive. They might make the left feel a bit better that they had "punished" the rich. But that is all

The richest 26 people in the world own as much as the poorest 50% of the world combined.

 

[Ric]

Farage saying that the Brexit Party will contest every seat in England, Scotland and Wales if Johnson doesn't sign up to the Leave Alliance, which seems unlikely. Also says he won't campaign against Tory MPs who renounce Johnson's deal. Interesting development.