General Election June 8th

[urban genie]

Meh, yawn, another meh

thanks for that, in all these political thread, nearly all your post have been childish retorts rather thaan actual points of interest or debate.

Xiphos though we disagree and I think you aŕe wrong I mean no offence as rthis is a forum not real life

In honestly you bore me and in my mind you are an attention seeker who lends nothing to the debate.

I am left wing and love the debate, and with SWP kevin warlock s wand, purplesnose , etc you get that, with you that isn't apperent, you remind me of brooklandsblue in your ridiculousness

MODS this seems like a very personal attack and possibly against the COC so if I need a ban I will accept it

 

[Hart of the Matter]

But most wealth within a society is created by the worker and working class, something that new labours policies of the neo liberal idea that sweetening people of vast wealth and big business will create wealth, ignored.
Making the vast majority of the country less well off won't improve social justice and the parts of the country that have been left impoverished are a result of the fixation with what is only a recent economic policy of moden post-fordism pushed by thatcher which has shaped us and left us in a 2 teir country which we will probably never come back from.

Watching the tories push more rightwards, it's easy to think that returning to a progress type labour could oust them eventually, but then we have still a centrist, big business enthralled government with some socially consious attitudes, the poorest and workers will still be left behind.

Those that that would like a more social just egaletarian society are pretty much out of options.

I agree with your analysis but not your conclusion. I do not believe governments can address the inequalities (sadly). The best we can hope for is that policies are aimed at moderating them. We live in a capitalist world. The movement of money and therefore wealth/jobs etc is global. Unless we had a totally self sufficient economy the impact is inevitable. Corbyn is an old style politician out of keeping with modern dynamics. His messages jar with many people and traditional voters. Most of my family work in the NHS. Labours big announcement was they would raise nurses pay. Their reaction was, give us more staff and time to do our jobs safely before you give us more pay. It saddens me that left leaning people like myself have no credible vote to cast. After decades as a party member I feel adrift. I battled to see off the thugs and fascists that were militant ( I grew up in Liverpool and experienced it first hand). I stood and cheered Kinnock at the 85 conference. We are back to square 1 again. Now we have 'momentum' (most inept name ever lol).
The radical agenda should be aimed at investing in the economy (pump priming) in securing the safety net (social and health care). Providing a more equal playing field for people to access work (early years and education). Those basic principles should then provide the basis for individuals to stand on their own feet and take responsibility for their own futures. Welfare should insentivise work and be a last resort only. Not rocket science and what many hard working traditional labour voters believe.
I will never vote Tory because, as a party, I do not trust their instincts or motives (even when their policies look fairly benign). Like many I know I am stuck about what to do on 8th June but the real question is what will follow and for how long?

 

[urban genie]

I agree with your analysis but not your conclusion. I do not believe governments can address the inequalities (sadly). The best we can hope for is that policies are aimed at moderating them. We live in a capitalist world. The movement of money and therefore wealth/jobs etc is global. Unless we had a totally self sufficient economy the impact is inevitable. Corbyn is an old style politician out of keeping with modern dynamics. His messages jar with many people and traditional voters. Most of my family work in the NHS. Labours big announcement was they would raise nurses pay. Their reaction was, give us more staff and time to do our jobs safely before you give us more pay. It saddens me that left leaning people like myself have no credible vote to cast. After decades as a party member I feel adrift. I battled to see off the thugs and fascists that were militant ( I grew up in Liverpool and experienced it first hand). I stood and cheered Kinnock at the 85 conference. We are back to square 1 again. Now we have 'momentum' (most inept name ever lol).
The radical agenda should be aimed at investing in the economy (pump priming) in securing the safety net (social and health care). Providing a more equal playing field for people to access work (early years and education). Those basic principles should then provide the basis for individuals to stand on their own feet and take responsibility for their own futures. Welfare should insentivise work and be a last resort only. Not rocket science and what many hard working traditional labour voters believe.
I will never vote Tory because, as a party, I do not trust their instincts or motives (even when their policies look fairly benign). Like many I know I am stuck about what to do on 8th June but the real question is what will follow and for how long?

I agree on most of that, bar if we continually accept that the world is capatalist, it will never change to anything better.

On the vote I believe everybody should vote to keep the tories out, if those that are dissolutiined with corbyn and feel they cannot vote labour, then don't vote tory, but vote for those that can oust a tory MP.

I would rather a hung parliament and a coalition of a couple of parties, anyone but them malicious, self serving, nasty tory cunts

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I would rather a hung parliament and a coalition of a couple of parties, anyone but them malicious, self serving, nasty tory cunts

This is a constant accusation by the left, that Conservatives are nasty cunts. Following that mantra, the majority
of the voting populace must also be nasty cunts, it's total and utter nonsense, and the lack of empathy from lefties towards
alternate views is one of the reasons working folk are abandoning them.

 

[urban genie]

This is a constant accusation by the left, that Conservatives are nasty cunts. Following that mantra, the majority
of the voting populace must also be nasty cunts, it's total and utter nonsense, and the lack of empathy from lefties towards
alternate views is one of the reasons working folk are abandoning them.

No not at all, the conservative party, it's die hard believers are nasty, voters are flexible and vote for what they believe will benefit them or their families.

tories are just better at present as looking like the people that can do that, I know and work with plenty of people who have voted conservative and I consider them friends, plenty on the right consider lefties as nasty.

Calling a our present government a load of nasty cunts which to me they are is completely different and seperate.

 

[SWP's back]

also been labour voters always will be

You don't see the issue with that?

 

[SWP's back]

and in answer to facts????


only @SWP actualy is worth talking to, the rest just waffle or insult from bias mantra .


5 years ago off top / the cellar was rich lwith topical informed debate, now, bar 2-3 on either side these topics are pointless.

Kind of you to say bud.

Just read in the Guardian that Corbyn will have a new higher tax on the "wealthy" people earning over £80,000.

Seeing as the current rate is 45% and NI is also a tax, do you feel comfortable with taking over 50p in the pound from earnings over £80k?

It's just theft if you ask me.

 

[SWP's back]

I would rather a hung parliament and a coalition of a couple of parties, anyone but them malicious, self serving, nasty tory cunts

You see this is an interesting point.

I personally believe people wanting to take over half of a portion of someone's pay to be self serving and nasty. Whether they are cunts I couldn't possibly say without meeting them though.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No not at all, the conservative party, it's die hard believers are nasty, voters are flexible and vote for what they believe will benefit them or their families.

tories are just better at present as looking like the people that can do that, I know and work with plenty of people who have voted conservative and I consider them friends, plenty on the right consider lefties as nasty.

Calling a our present government a load of nasty cunts which to me they are is completely different and seperate.

So all these friends and colleagues who vote conservative are all totally unaware that they're voting
for nasty cunts then? If the Tories are so good at convincing people that they're better at helping them and their families,
which is patently the case, as they've had more terms than Labour, the only reason to call them nasty cunts is because of
frustration that your preferred choice is not what folk want.

 

[urban genie]

So all these friends and colleagues who vote conservative are all totally unaware that they're voting
for nasty cunts then? If the Tories are so good at convincing people that they're better at helping them and their families,
which is patently the case, as they've had more terms than Labour, the only reason to call them nasty cunts is because of
frustration that your preferred choice is not what folk want.

No they know who they are voting and in their opinion it's the right people, I disagree it's that simple, I find a tory government self serving amd nasty, others don't, that's life.

 

[urban genie]

Kind of you to say bud.

Just read in the Guardian that Corbyn will have a new higher tax on the "wealthy" people earning over £80,000.

Seeing as the current rate is 45% and NI is also a tax, do you feel comfortable with taking over 50p in the pound from earnings over £80k?

It's just theft if you ask me.

I think everyone should contribute, £80000 I would say is not a figure I would tax by half, readressing the gaps in wages is more important, and then tax fairly.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Kind of you to say bud.

Just read in the Guardian that Corbyn will have a new higher tax on the "wealthy" people earning over £80,000.

Seeing as the current rate is 45% and NI is also a tax, do you feel comfortable with taking over 50p in the pound from earnings over £80k?

It's just theft if you ask me.

Once tax rises to the extent proposed by idiots like Corbyn, ie, paying the government more than you're getting,
the tax take always drops as a result, yet the envy crew just never get it.
I remember Labour introducing a top tax rate of 83%, plus 15% on anything in the bank, the damage to the exchequer
was colossal, investment collapsed and the tax take plummeted.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No they know who they are voting and in their opinion it's the right people, I disagree it's that simple, I find a tory government self serving amd nasty, others don't, that's life.

Fair enough, looks like we're getting the nasty cunts anyway ;)

 

[cibaman]

According to the Sunday Times, Labour's target is to match the 30.4% of the vote that Milliband achieved in 2015, as they believe that would keep Corbyn in his job.

Hence the focus will be on appealing to the core vote across the country rather than winning or holding onto marginal seats.

An interesting strategy, if true.

 

[SWP's back]

Hence the focus will be on appealing to the core vote across the country rather than winning or holding onto marginal seats.

An interesting strategy, if true.

That's an understatement.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

That's an understatement.

so the main opposition, and the party that was in government for 13 years only 7 years ago, now wants to achieve the support of less than a third of 60% (probably less as I doubt turnout will be that high this time) of the population, tells you all you need to know about the people backing this version of the party.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

According to the Sunday Times, Labour's target is to match the 30.4% of the vote that Milliband achieved in 2015, as they believe that would keep Corbyn in his job.

Hence the focus will be on appealing to the core vote across the country rather than winning or holding onto marginal seats.

An interesting strategy, if true.

And I suspect is true. The guy has no shame. This is why I am thinking twice of giving him any sustenance by voting Labour. Life long Labour member but not voting Labour (or anyone) go figure. When Foot was giving the Party away, I stayed and fought for modernisation. I now just bow and shake my head in dispare. My generation are the ones who have been given opportunities and thrived due to the post war reforms Labour introduced. It is now my and subsequent generations who are being let down by the Party. The terminology and terms of reference used are so cliched and old hat. Time for a clean sweep. We are now services based economy and company tax should be insentivised to drive that. We have given away the utilities and we had our first ever 24hrs electricity supply with no input from coal. The 20th Centuary is dead. Do I believe Tory voters are nasty - no. I do however believe the inner sanctum of that party have vested interests which do not always tally with a social justice agenda. Dogma has ruled out too many options for labour in the past.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

This notion that the so called rich should pay more tax; in this case, Labours plan to increase the income tax rate of those earning over £80,000 is bulls**t. Basic mathematics shows that the rich already pay more tax by virtue of the fact that 20% (basic rate of income tax) of £40,000 is twice as much as 20% of £20,000.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

I don't know the significance of it but the figure of £80,000 is slightly higher than an MP's salary of £74,000.

 

[blueinsa]

I don't know the significance of it but the figure of £80,000 is slightly higher than an MP's salary of £74,000.

Well I never pmsl