General Election June 8th

Who will you vote for at the General Election?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 189 28.8%
  • Labour

    Votes: 366 55.8%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 37 5.6%
  • SNP

    Votes: 8 1.2%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 23 3.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 33 5.0%

  • Total voters
    656
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Yes, I call it Derry, most people in town do, although some Unionists, strangely enough from out of town call it Londonderry which is its correct title by royal charter, all nationalists call it Derry or Doire which is Irish. I posted Derry originally and it was altered, so I posted Derry/Londonderry and get a sarky remark, just can't win!
If someone declared to me in town, "by Royal Charter, Manchester is to be renamed Londonmanchester" I'd take their royal charter and shove it right up their royal arse. Course I'd defend us being British to the hilt at the same time.

You mean it was altered by predictive text or a mod did it? You have to out them for that.

Edit: Also, I'm not one to deny a people their culture, I respect (in fact support) that they fly the union flag there with pride (since it is not a British flag but a UK flag which includes representation of Ireland). You can't deny though a lot of their "culture" is antagonistic - marching bands adamant of taking routes in front of republican houses prime example.
 
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I haven't suggested you posted anything, I was pre-empting what I thought you would say. By all means.

Well your mind reading skills are poor. So you don't think someone can vote Labour out of self interest and you don't think jezza is a sympathiser based on guesswork which you have shown to be poor at.

Do carry on
 
Well your mind reading skills are poor. So you don't think someone can vote Labour out of self interest and you don't think jezza is a sympathiser based on guesswork which you have shown to be poor at.

Do carry on
Offered you the chance to enlighten me but you've took the tory tactic of repetition instead.

Never said he didn't sympathise with why they were fighting. That's not to say he sympathised with the methods used by some ranks of the IRA.
 
+1 can we quit the "pish"

I too find it unfavourable to read.

Also @Magicpole - SNP can say they're welcoming of others all they want but if Scotland had the level of immigration some areas in England has had they'd soon change their tune. At the heart of wanting Scottish independence is matters relating to Scottish culture so what'd be the point in an independent Scotland if it's another USA type multicultural country. Only Scotland in name then. Not a matter of race but preservation of the bona fide culture rather than a "hybrid" or one people have to resurge like the native americans. Bear in mind the annual rate of immigration against your current population, then bear in mind why people want to come to the UK, then their decision of whether to go for Brexit UK or welcoming Scotland where it's effectively the same country/island but comfier to live in financially and socially (from a potential immigrant's perspective). Your sense of Scotland would quickly be in trouble.

It's a basic economic fact that we need immigration or we are screwed. My sense of Scotland is not Heather and bagpipes. We have half a million English people living here, as yet I haven't seen one Morris dancer. Our culture shoukd grow whilst retaining who we are. I want people who want to be here and contribute as they do now.

Even if we were all total racists and believe me we have plenty, even then we need migration due to an ageing population and not enough native gingers being born.

It's not an option for us even if we wanted it, which the vast majority don't. We don't want people who see it as a free ride and we all know that immigration has to get smarter.

I also have a hope that we might get a few good football players growing up Scottish and we might reach a fucking final of a tournament.

Economically though it's please come and for us Brexit reduces the potential workers we need.

If we go independent and the rest go down the Brexit rabbit hole led by Tories then I think we might see a few more English learning to say pish. :)
 
Offered you the chance to enlighten me but you've took the tory tactic of repetition instead.

Never said he didn't sympathise with why they were fighting. That's not to say he sympathised with the methods used by some ranks of the IRA.

Enlighten you on what ?
 
It's a basic economic fact that we need immigration or we are screwed. My sense of Scotland is not Heather and bagpipes. We have half a million English people living here, as yet I haven't seen one Morris dancer. Our culture shoukd grow whilst retaining who we are. I want people who want to be here and contribute as they do now.

Even if we were all total racists and believe me we have plenty, even then we need migration due to an ageing population and not enough native gingers being born.

It's not an option for us even if we wanted it, which the vast majority don't. We don't want people who see it as a free ride and we all know that immigration has to get smarter.

I also have a hope that we might get a few good football players growing up Scottish and we might reach a fucking final of a tournament.

Economically though it's please come and for us Brexit reduces the potential workers we need.

If we go independent and the rest go down the Brexit rabbit hole led by Tories then I think we might see a few more English learning to say pish. :)
Fair enough, you do have a load of grumpy old bastards up there.

2 alternative (longer-term) options:

a) Get to shaggin'
b) Scale back/reallocate infrastructure you don't have the people for

P.S. I don't think the English are the best example to use for expression of culture.
 
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Enlighten you on what ?
Why a Labour vote is a self-interested vote. You skirted it that long I nearly forgot. You'd make a good politician.

BTW I despise the iRA too, but it wouldn't have stopped me from befriending them in order for them to value what I had to say. The other option would have been to condemn them and ignore their gripes and prolong the suffering on both sides until either someone decided to "be the bigger man" or one side was defeated. Both sides drew up "ethnic" cleansing plans or even attempted it. Utterly disgraceful on both sides and a horrible situation where nobody could claim to be the better so if Corbyn condemned both sides he's right to.

Colin Parry is the example to follow.
 
Ah, the boy is back from my little ban-ette. Apparently I've been too insulting and here was me thinking I was holding back. You should have heard what I REALLY think ;-)

Anyway, there's a number of things I'd like to reply to but let me start with this:

Ah yeah, the usual blame Labour for a global economic crisis caused by a lack of regulation that the Tories backed at absolutely every stage. Yes, growth is higher now, nearly 10 years later, than it was in the biggest economic crash since the great depression. Well done. How's that debt mountain? How many people have become homeless in that time? What has happened to people's income levels? How many of those "employed" people actually have enough hours to make ends meet? How many more people are having to rely on food banks? If the economy is so much better under the Tories, why is it that no-one but their rich friends are seeing the benefits? The deficit is reduced? They said they'd get rid of it by 2015. So what happened there? Even by their own measures, they failed economically.

1. The reason it's the "usual blame", is because it was indeed their fault and it's appropriate to blame those who's fault it is. Labour inherited from the Conservatives an economy in good shape, with a budget surplus. But with their usual tax and spend and then more tax because the tax didn't raise as much as they hoped... they managed to run up a big fat deficit BEFORE the crash of 2007. Got that? I'll say it again: They managed to return the economy to the toilet BEFORE the crash of 2007.

Given they presided over a period of world-wide prosperity and growth, this was quite a feat, even by Labour standards. Admittedly it took much longer than it usually takes them to fuck up the economy, but that's because Blair was "Labour-light". Nevertheless, by the end, his mucker the good old glass-eye wobble-chin had raided every single tax pot he could imagine and some. He'd complete run out of pots to pinch from. Tax on insurance, tax on air travel, tax on god knows what.

The most insidious of these was his stealth tax on pensions. In 1997, your average £200/m pension would yield a return of about £250,000 after 20 years. After Gordon's gift to us all, those same investments were yielding about £150,000 in 2007. Thanks Gordy. A hundred grand out of pensioners' pockets in one nasty little stealth tax.

2. Good Lord. Labour preside over the deregulation of the banks, and it's the Tories' fault for not opposing them? Priceless, absolutely priceless.

3. Growth has been decent for years, as SWP has been pointing out. The Tories inherited a crock of shit (remember the "we've spent it all" note?) but with necessary but painful cuts (and YES, they have been painful) and careful management of the economy, they have managed to get things back on track. They've been back on track for 5 or 6 years now, steadily reducing the deficit whilst at the same time being very aware how much the cuts are hurting and therefore unable to cut as much as is perhaps really needed. That's why we still have a small deficit.

4. How's the debt mountain? Answer, it's growing nicely thanks??? But you know what it was growing by £180bn a year when Labour gave the Tories the hospital pass. They've managed to slow the supertanker and got it down to less than a quarter of that. Not bad. No, not perfect, but actually running a country is hard, as Blair and Brown so ably demonstrated by their managing to fuck it right up.

It is quite funny to hear Labour supporters ask how the debt mountain is, whilst completely ignoring the fact that THEY caused it. A bit like driving at 100 miles an hour down the wrong road for 10 minutes, then handing of the wheel to your mate and criticising him for not stopping soon enough, and having gone 100 yards further? You could not make it up.

5. As I say, running a country is hard. When you are handed from Labour massive debt, high taxes, a huge deficit and slow growth, what the fuck are you supposed to do? Raise taxes even further - the very thing that ruined the economy in the first place? Well obviously you have to be a bit careful about that, don't you. You can't go slapping huge great big tax rises around because it would crash the economy completely. How about borrow EVEN more? Again, very stupid as that would damage our credit rating, push up interest rates, push up the cost of servicing our debt, make everyone worse off and make the deficit even worse. So that's a no then.

So where was all the extra money to come from, to spend on all the things Labour demand the Tories spend it on? The cupboard was bare!

Austerity was an unfortunate necessity ("needless austerity" my ARSE) and it was always going to be hard. People actually understood that, which is why Cameron got in in the first place. They also understood it when he got reelected in 2015. No-one likes foodbanks of course, but contrary to what some people on here seem to think, it's just not possible to spend more money on everything. Doing that is the sure way to return to recession, job losses, unemployment and MORE food banks.
 
Why a Labour vote is a self-interested vote. You skirted it that long I nearly forgot. You'd make a good politician.
Because it's other people's money as I've said before. It's all coming from that mythical few, for the many. The few will simply fuck off. Raising tax rates doesn't increase tax revenue, it reduces it. People that can afford to simply fuck off and pay nothing instead.

It's all "costed" on the assumption that everyone stays in place. It assumes loopholes can be closed (which they can't without word wide agreements in place). A crackdown on "tax avoiders", that's like saying a crackdown on "speeding drivers doing 30 in a 30", it's not possible, tax avoidance is legal.

A "fat tax on greedy corporations", define them at your leisure please.
 
Why a Labour vote is a self-interested vote. You skirted it that long I nearly forgot. You'd make a good politician.

BTW I despise the iRA too, but it wouldn't have stopped me from befriending them in order for them to value what I had to say. The other option would have been to condemn them and ignore their gripes and prolong the suffering on both sides until either someone decided to "be the bigger man" or one side was defeated. Both sides drew up "ethnic" cleansing plans or even attempted it. Utterly disgraceful on both sides and a horrible situation where nobody could claim to be the better so if Corbyn condemned both sides he's right to.

Colin Parry is the example to follow.


I never said a Labour vote was a self interested vote. You said

You don't vote Labour out of self interest

You can't even remember what you posted or read what others have properly
 
Because it's other people's money as I've said before. It's all coming from that mythical few, for the many. The few will simply fuck off. Raising tax rates doesn't increase tax revenue, it reduces it. People that can afford to simply fuck off and pay nothing instead.

It's all "costed" on the assumption that everyone stays in place. It assumes loopholes can be closed (which they can't without word wide agreements in place). A crackdown on "tax avoiders", that's like saying a crackdown on "speeding drivers doing 30 in a 30", it's not possible, tax avoidance is legal.

A "fat tax on greedy corporations", define them at your leisure please.
Valid points but none of that makes the person voting Labour self-interested.

Also, besides many of these proposals simply being a reversal (and not even to the full extent) of Tory's bringing it down since they've been in, this idea that reducing tax encourages the richer to invest is flawed. I think they're just as likely/more likely to put it in an off-shore bank account, or they could invent somewhere else in the world - either way, it takes the money out of the country (depending what earnings level above that threshold they're at). How many billionaires retire in Britain?
 
I never said a Labour vote was a self interested vote. You said

You don't vote Labour out of self interest

You can't even remember what you posted or read what others have properly
You posed the question to me twice: "are you saying people don't vote Labour out of self-interest" / "so you don't think someone can vote Labour out of self-interest"

You insinuated some do so I asked for examples that weren't about benefits because as you pointed out earlier, that's not what you were thinking.

I stand by what I said, as I gave the example that a self-interested vote is more reflective of someone wanting to accumulate wealth which the Tories accommodate for. In my view, voting Labour on the other hand (in this election) is about getting the country's infrastructure back to the level it's needed to reverse the shocking state it has become under the Tories. That infrastructure is investing in the country's future for EVERYONE, rich or poor.

The Tories will peddle the same lies that Labour are careless with benefits, have an open door policy and ramp up the country's debt when just as bad or worse examples can be found under Tory tenure with the last 2 examples respectively. The Tories generate myths by repetition and use of the media until it's embedded with the general social consciousness to appear legitimate when they are complete cons.

I rest my points now anyway. i know what vote is pivotal to safeguarding this country's future for all it's people.
 
You posed the question to me twice: "are you saying people don't vote Labour out of self-interest" / "so you don't think someone can vote Labour out of self-interest"

You insinuated some do so I asked for examples that weren't about benefits because as you pointed out earlier, that's not what you were thinking.

I stand by what I said, as I gave the example that a self-interested vote is more reflective of someone wanting to accumulate wealth which the Tories accommodate for. In my view, voting Labour on the other hand (in this election) is about getting the country's infrastructure back to the level it's needed to reverse the shocking state it has become under the Tories. That infrastructure is investing in the country's future for EVERYONE, rich or poor.

The Tories will peddle the same lies that Labour are careless with benefits, have an open door policy and ramp up the country's debt when just as bad or worse examples can be found under Tory tenure with the last 2 examples respectively. The Tories generate myths by repetition and use of the media until it's embedded with the general social consciousness to appear legitimate when they are complete cons.

I rest my points now anyway. i know what vote is pivotal to safeguarding this country's future for all it's people.


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, making sure you understood and even the chance to retract as the alternative is that out of millions of labour voters you dont believe any vote out of self interest. Off the top of my head within seconds

Labour MPs themselves
People who work for labour mps
People who work for councils about to get more cuts
People who rely on council tenders(me for example go figure)
Union leaders
Union activists

i could go on.

I feel I'm not conversing with a genius here
 
Ah, the boy is back from my little ban-ette. Apparently I've been too insulting and here was me thinking I was holding back. You should have heard what I REALLY think ;-)

Anyway, there's a number of things I'd like to reply to but let me start with this:



1. The reason it's the "usual blame", is because it was indeed their fault and it's appropriate to blame those who's fault it is. Labour inherited from the Conservatives an economy in good shape, with a budget surplus. But with their usual tax and spend and then more tax because the tax didn't raise as much as they hoped... they managed to run up a big fat deficit BEFORE the crash of 2007. Got that? I'll say it again: They managed to return the economy to the toilet BEFORE the crash of 2007.

Given they presided over a period of world-wide prosperity and growth, this was quite a feat, even by Labour standards. Admittedly it took much longer than it usually takes them to fuck up the economy, but that's because Blair was "Labour-light". Nevertheless, by the end, his mucker the good old glass-eye wobble-chin had raided every single tax pot he could imagine and some. He'd complete run out of pots to pinch from. Tax on insurance, tax on air travel, tax on god knows what.

The most insidious of these was his stealth tax on pensions. In 1997, your average £200/m pension would yield a return of about £250,000 after 20 years. After Gordon's gift to us all, those same investments were yielding about £150,000 in 2007. Thanks Gordy. A hundred grand out of pensioners' pockets in one nasty little stealth tax.

2. Good Lord. Labour preside over the deregulation of the banks, and it's the Tories' fault for not opposing them? Priceless, absolutely priceless.

3. Growth has been decent for years, as SWP has been pointing out. The Tories inherited a crock of shit (remember the "we've spent it all" note?) but with necessary but painful cuts (and YES, they have been painful) and careful management of the economy, they have managed to get things back on track. They've been back on track for 5 or 6 years now, steadily reducing the deficit whilst at the same time being very aware how much the cuts are hurting and therefore unable to cut as much as is perhaps really needed. That's why we still have a small deficit.

4. How's the debt mountain? Answer, it's growing nicely thanks??? But you know what it was growing by £180bn a year when Labour gave the Tories the hospital pass. They've managed to slow the supertanker and got it down to less than a quarter of that. Not bad. No, not perfect, but actually running a country is hard, as Blair and Brown so ably demonstrated by their managing to fuck it right up.

It is quite funny to hear Labour supporters ask how the debt mountain is, whilst completely ignoring the fact that THEY caused it. A bit like driving at 100 miles an hour down the wrong road for 10 minutes, then handing of the wheel to your mate and criticising him for not stopping soon enough, and having gone 100 yards further? You could not make it up.

5. As I say, running a country is hard. When you are handed from Labour massive debt, high taxes, a huge deficit and slow growth, what the fuck are you supposed to do? Raise taxes even further - the very thing that ruined the economy in the first place? Well obviously you have to be a bit careful about that, don't you. You can't go slapping huge great big tax rises around because it would crash the economy completely. How about borrow EVEN more? Again, very stupid as that would damage our credit rating, push up interest rates, push up the cost of servicing our debt, make everyone worse off and make the deficit even worse. So that's a no then.

So where was all the extra money to come from, to spend on all the things Labour demand the Tories spend it on? The cupboard was bare!

Austerity was an unfortunate necessity ("needless austerity" my ARSE) and it was always going to be hard. People actually understood that, which is why Cameron got in in the first place. They also understood it when he got reelected in 2015. No-one likes foodbanks of course, but contrary to what some people on here seem to think, it's just not possible to spend more money on everything. Doing that is the sure way to return to recession, job losses, unemployment and MORE food banks.
Well thought out post & 100% correct .
 
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, making sure you understood and even the chance to retract as the alternative is that out of millions of labour voters you dont believe any vote out of self interest. Off the top of my head within seconds

Labour MPs themselves
People who work for labour mps
People who work for councils about to get more cuts
People who rely on council tenders(me for example go figure)
Union leaders
Union activists

i could go on.

I feel I'm not conversing with a genius here
Fckin 'ell.

Who made that comment about scraping the bottom of the barrel to a Tory voter before? Can I borrow it please?
 
Valid points but none of that makes the person voting Labour self-interested.

Also, besides many of these proposals simply being a reversal (and not even to the full extent) of Tory's bringing it down since they've been in, this idea that reducing tax encourages the richer to invest is flawed. I think they're just as likely/more likely to put it in an off-shore bank account, or they could invent somewhere else in the world - either way, it takes the money out of the country (depending what earnings level above that threshold they're at). How many billionaires retire in Britain?
When Ireland dropped corporation tax rates to 12.5%, they had inward investment of $277 billion from American companies using Ireland as their EU base of operations.

More than the US invested in Brazil, Russia, India and China combined.

The 700 US companies now employ 130,000 Irish men and women. Lowering corporate tax has been an absolute boon for the Irish economy.
 
When Ireland dropped corporation tax rates to 12.5%, they had inward investment of $277 billion from American companies using Ireland as their EU base of operations.

More than the US invested in Brazil, Russia, India and China combined.
Yes but thats a significant drop on ours and I was talking about income tax not corporation.

Ireland have done well, I imagine they can support that due to a small population.
 
Fckin 'ell.

Who made that comment about scraping the bottom of the barrel to someone on this thread earlier? Can I borrow it please?

So Bamber are you saying none of those could possibly vote out of self interest?

What about those on £7 £8 an hour knowing the living wage will be a tenner. None of these could possibly vote for labour out of self interest?
So will you concede a very simple point, slink off/not reply or continue to state that no labour voters do so out of self interest.

My guess would be slink off/not reply
 
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