Get a grip!

[Chippy_boy]

Chippy - where's your post about Zaba/full backs gone? Did you delete it?

I did Bill. In hindsight I thought it was nothing I hadn't said before and it's a red rag to a bull with some people.

 

[hgblue]

I This is markedly worse at the moment because we don't have Vinny bringing the ball from defence: the centre halves are just giving it to Ya Ya. And we ended up on ~Saturday with a massive gap between the holding players and the attacking players, which stymied all of our link play.

I completely agree with this. Without wanting to excuse players playing poorly, I do think that the key to playing a high pressing game with a high defensive line is having centre halves with the ability to step out of defence with the ball and push up into central midfield positions, reducing the gaps for the opposition to work in. If you look at the two most effective teams when it comes to pressing high and playing a high defensive line then they'd currently have to be Dortmund and Barca. Both teams rely heavily on Hummels and Pique, and in Barca's case it's so important that they'll play a midfield player like Mascherano at centre half rather than a pure central defender to make sure that the threat remains.

Frankly, I think we need to overhaul the back 4 in the next two transfer windows. Vinny and and Nasty are the only two who would be guaranteed to stay and I'd be looking for at least one full back for each side and two centre halves. Between Zaba, Richards, Clichy and Kola we don't have a single cultured full back who has the quality of pass or cross required. Other than Vinny we don't have a centre half with the aggression and ball playing ability to step out of defence and close down space, win the ball, and then move forward like a more midfield player.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think Txiki dropped a bollock in not paying the money Roma wanted for Marquinhos.

Hindsight? Some of us have been banging on about signing a quality centre back for the entire transfer window. Entirely forseeable that we'd struggle without Vinny. A quality holding midfielder wouldn't have gone amiss either if Barry is considered surplus.

 

[BobKowalski]

I This is markedly worse at the moment because we don't have Vinny bringing the ball from defence: the centre halves are just giving it to Ya Ya. And we ended up on ~Saturday with a massive gap between the holding players and the attacking players, which stymied all of our link play.

I completely agree with this. Without wanting to excuse players playing poorly, I do think that the key to playing a high pressing game with a high defensive line is having centre halves with the ability to step out of defence with the ball and push up into central midfield positions, reducing the gaps for the opposition to work in. If you look at the two most effective teams when it comes to pressing high and playing a high defensive line then they'd currently have to be Dortmund and Barca. Both teams rely heavily on Hummels and Pique, and in Barca's case it's so important that they'll play a midfield player like Mascherano at centre half rather than a pure central defender to make sure that the threat remains.

Frankly, I think we need to overhaul the back 4 in the next two transfer windows. Vinny and and Nasty are the only two who would be guaranteed to stay and I'd be looking for at least one full back for each side and two centre halves. Between Zaba, Richards, Clichy and Kola we don't have a single cultured full back who has the quality of pass or cross required. Other than Vinny we don't have a centre half with the aggression and ball playing ability to step out of defence and close down space, win the ball, and then move forward like a more midfield player.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think Txiki dropped a bollock in not paying the money Roma wanted for Marquinhos.

Why are we playing a high defensive line/high pressing game if we don't (seemingly) have the personnel to play this way? In pre season you would have thought someone would have noticed. Even with Kompany Arsenal sliced through us like we didn't exist. Also I spent all pre season being tweeted by Vinny how great the preparation and training was so why were we so badly prepared for Cardiff and Hull specifically the concept that teams may at some stage put some pressure on us?

More importantly why am I getting the sinking feeling that I am being gently shepherded towards the door marked 'Transitional Season' rather then the door marked 'Major Trophies'?

 

[Chippy_boy]

I This is markedly worse at the moment because we don't have Vinny bringing the ball from defence: the centre halves are just giving it to Ya Ya. And we ended up on ~Saturday with a massive gap between the holding players and the attacking players, which stymied all of our link play.

I completely agree with this. Without wanting to excuse players playing poorly, I do think that the key to playing a high pressing game with a high defensive line is having centre halves with the ability to step out of defence with the ball and push up into central midfield positions, reducing the gaps for the opposition to work in. If you look at the two most effective teams when it comes to pressing high and playing a high defensive line then they'd currently have to be Dortmund and Barca. Both teams rely heavily on Hummels and Pique, and in Barca's case it's so important that they'll play a midfield player like Mascherano at centre half rather than a pure central defender to make sure that the threat remains.

Frankly, I think we need to overhaul the back 4 in the next two transfer windows. Vinny and and Nasty are the only two who would be guaranteed to stay and I'd be looking for at least one full back for each side and two centre halves. Between Zaba, Richards, Clichy and Kola we don't have a single cultured full back who has the quality of pass or cross required. Other than Vinny we don't have a centre half with the aggression and ball playing ability to step out of defence and close down space, win the ball, and then move forward like a more midfield player.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think Txiki dropped a bollock in not paying the money Roma wanted for Marquinhos.

Why are we playing a high defensive line/high pressing game if we don't (seemingly) have the personnel to play this way? In pre season you would have thought someone would have noticed. Even with Kompany Arsenal sliced through us like we didn't exist. Also I spent all pre season being tweeted by Vinny how great the preparation and training was so why were we so badly prepared for Cardiff and Hull specifically the concept that teams may at some stage put some pressure on us?

More importantly why am I getting the sinking feeling that I am being gently shepherded towards the door marked 'Transitional Season' rather then the door marked 'Major Trophies'?

Baffling Bob, I agree.

That's why I posed the question elsewhere that perhaps Pellegrini underestimated our opponents. (And got my head bitten off for daring to say such a thing.)

I really hope that's the excuse. Buoyed by our thrashing of a big name club on the opening day, he went into the Cardiff game thinking we'd be a little light at the back, but never mind we'll score 6 and it will be a walk in the park.

If this is *not* the case, and he thought the way he set us up for Cardiff was just fine, then that is quite disturbing because at Stoke we would get annihilated playing like we did against Cardiff or Hull. God help us at somewhere like Liverpool. Can you in your worst nightmare imaging Suarez running around in the gaping space between our back 4 and our midfield. He'd score a hatrick with his eyes closed.

So I prefer to think he just underestimated the so-called lesser opponents and won't make the same mistake a 3rd time.

 

[BobKowalski]

If this is *not* the case, and he thought the way he set us up for Cardiff was just fine, then that is quite disturbing because at Stoke we would get annihilated playing like we did against Cardiff or Hull. God help us at somewhere like Liverpool. Can you in your worst nightmare imaging Suarez running around in the gaping space between our back 4 and our midfield. He'd score a hatrick with his eyes closed.

 

[OB1]

But I am actually more concerned about the fact that for much of the Cardiff and Hull games, the two newly promoted teams looked like the better side! Not for the whole game, but for large parts of both games, they passed it around better, retained possession better, had decent movement, were quicker and looked threatening. And we laboured away, giving the ball away and looked slow and lethargic. I am oversimplifying, but at times that's how it looked.

I

And yet we actually dominated possession in both games (dramatically so in Cardiff) and had significantly better pass completion in both games. Indeed, as far as possession goes over the first three rounds, we are second to Everton and we top the pass accuracy chart. Oh and we are currently scoring at least one goal a game more than any other side.

It''s early days and I am certainly not happy with our performances overall or that we are not top on maximum points. Manny certainly has work to do to get the team doing what he wants. I also don't want to take any credit away from Hull and Cardiff for their efforts but I do think that there is a tendency for people to get carried away with just how good those teams were and how bad we were because of what I shall call David and Goliath syndrome. That is not me suggesting in any way that we were not well below the standard that we should expect City to consistently deliver.

 

[Chippy_boy]

But I am actually more concerned about the fact that for much of the Cardiff and Hull games, the two newly promoted teams looked like the better side! Not for the whole game, but for large parts of both games, they passed it around better, retained possession better, had decent movement, were quicker and looked threatening. And we laboured away, giving the ball away and looked slow and lethargic. I am oversimplifying, but at times that's how it looked.

I

And yet we actually dominated possession in both games (dramatically so in Cardiff) and had significantly better pass completion in both games. Indeed, as far as possession goes over the first three rounds, we are second to Everton and we top the pass accuracy chart. Oh and we are currently scoring at least one goal a game more than any other side.

It''s early days and I am certainly not happy with our performances overall or that we are not top on maximum points. Manny certainly has work to do to get the team doing what he wants. I also don't want to take any credit away from Hull and Cardiff for their efforts but I do think that there is a tendency for people to get carried away with just how good those teams were and how bad we were because of what I shall call David and Goliath syndrome. That is not me suggesting in any way that we were not well below the standard that we should expect City to consistently deliver.

The stats are the stats but it sure didn't look like that for much of those two horrow shows. First half against Hull was the worst I have seen us at home in years. We were like the away side in the first half.

 

[OB1]

The stats are the stats but it sure didn't look like that for much of those two horrow shows. First half against Hull was the worst I have seen us at home in years. We were like the away side in the first half.

We were bloody awful but I think our expectations (and perhaps anxiety) magnify things.

Our perceptions are far more subjective than stats, which is one reason why I like to consult the stats, in addition to watching the game(s).

 

[Tim of the Oak]

If you back track any more Billy you will be in reverse.Brilliant.You have gone from us romping the league (don't deny you haven't said it) to us being in a more competative league so it is going to be hard for everyone.
You seriously change your own little agenda to suit what is happening week in week out.
Of the highlighted bit-you clearly stated last week that "city will definitely get out of the champions league group".....Not so confident now are we hey after seeing that shambles at the weekend.

Can we make a deal? Lets ignore each other. We clearly have fuck all time for one another and turning every thread into "i think you're a twat" "I think your'e a hypocrite" is boring for everyone else.

-- Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:12 pm --

We also need one of the central defenders to have pace and playing such a high line vs Cardiff with Garcia and Lescott was asking for trouble and arguably unfair on them.

Having time to reflect on Saturday's game, however poor the first half was the second half was very good. It just felt mediocre due to the funeral atmosphere in the ground. When we were shit (most of the time) many Blues would have gone home happy that either of the two goals was worth the admission fee alone. It was cheaper then!!

I wonder if Micah will get a chance to play centre half in the high line high pressing system. I fear his positional sense won't be good enough but he's certainly got the pace/aggression.

I think Micah could get a few games but his positional Sense can be a liability like you say - particularly when he tires at the end of games.

As well as the ball over the top, it is noticeable that defence aren't great at slowing down the attack to give time for teammates to get back and cover. Joleon didn't get anything on the Hull striker who went through one on one and this is surprising given his time with the Everton school of spoilers. Demichelis hasn't got pace but I woul be surprised to see an Argentine centre half let a striker run through on goal unchallenged and maybe this is part of the reason he has been bought.

 

[Anonymous]

As well as the ball over the top, it is noticeable that defence aren't great at slowing down the attack to give time for teammates to get back and cover. Joleon didn't get anything on the Hull striker who went through one on one and this is surprising given his time with the Everton school of spoilers. Demichelis hasn't got pace but I woul be surprised to see an Argentine centre half let a striker run through on goal unchallenged and maybe this is part of the reason he has been bought.

Agree ... sometimes in football it's the devil or the deep blue sea. It'd be quite easy for Pellegrini to ask Yaya and Fernandinho to sit very deep, protect the back 4, and leave the attacking players to create. However I suspect if we did this then we'd end up running into a brick wall simply because the opposition themselves are sat so deep and without our two midfield players there are even less options for how to pass or play your way through. I do think that a large part of this is down to the changes Pellegrini is making. I said in another thread a short while ago I'm as disappointed as anyone that everything hasn't happened overnight and we're not the killing machine I thought we would be after Newcastle. However all in all I think by the time September is done everyone will be much calmer because we'll be much improved either because Vinny is back or because Demichelis has brought stability back to our defence.

It's a real shame that Micah wasn't fit when Vinny got injured. Would've been an ideal chance to see him playing centre half ...