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Give me an argument against this statement
- Thread starter JohnMaddocksAxe
- Start date
markblackford
Well-Known Member
"John maddocks axe " for manager. Anybody who knows anything about football wouldnt argue with you there
JohnMaddocksAxe said:"Mark Hughes has spent almost a season and a half at Manchester City, with tremendous support from the club, and has managed to constantly take players and, over this period, make them perform way below the sum of their parts. This is not a sign of a capable manager."
this statement is way to sort for you JMA so i dont belive it is really you!
JohnMaddocksAxe said:"Mark Hughes has spent almost a season and a half at Manchester City, with tremendous support from the club, and has managed to constantly take players and, over this period, make them perform way below the sum of their parts. This is not a sign of a capable manager."
Dont take it back but a football team always performs below the sum of its parts. Soundly, you put a special emphasis with "way" but still...
My view as requested.
I disagree with that statement nearly entirely. The first point that you make, about having tremendous support from the club is using a selective memory. Let's not forget that Hughes was consistently lied to by the club before September as far as available revenue and facilities was concerned. Also remember that he had no chance to spend any money when the Sheiks came in. His first pot of money came in January, which is a notoriously difficult time for any manager to buy players, let alone one who has to sell players 'a dream'. In that window, looking at his signings, I think we can agree that he did very well. De Jong, Bellamy and Bridge have all massively improved the squad. Obviously, this summer was a different story, but again, I don't think he has yet made a bad signing.
Hughes has had support from the club financially, and has had a certain amount of trust put in to him from Al-Mubarak. People forget that Thaskin basically tricked him into the club. Financially, I honestly don't believe anybody has any arguments as every single player has improved the squad and are far above the quality of the incumbent. He has also being allowed to bring in his own coaching staff, physio staff and youth staff. It is a natural reaction of any good manager in any aspect of life to want to work with people whose reactions and abilities he can judge, especially in a high pressure job. Hughes does need his 'mates' around him, as does every good manager. He needs people he can rely on, and he has brought them with him.
Training wise, from what I have seen and the reports on the forum, we seem to be working on faults that we can all identify.
On the pitch, I think his style of play hasn't quite shown through it's potential yet. My impression of Hughes from his Blackburn and Wales days, shows a style of play that is built from workrate and desire. He loves wing play, and he likes a big man up front to drop back and support the midfield wherever possible. He likes ball winners in midfield, and a pairing of a 'tough' CB and a ball player. I don't quite think we have gotten this completely correct yet, but you can see that that is the direction he is aiming for.
The next point you make, is concerning his inability to manage players to their true ability. I think you are solely referring to his management of a team, and not individually, but will cover both points for the sake of completion.
Individually, I fail to see any new signings who have come in and being any worse than they have been at their previous clubs. Perhaps Barry and Lescott, but both of these teams were built around them so you must excuse some errors in their judgement while they adapt to a style of play that is different from their usual.
I do think he has a problem with Robinho. I honestly don't think he knows what to do with a player like Robbie, as he is entirely focused on attacking and breeding defensive sensibilities into Brazilian forwards is akin to trying to get blood from a stone. Romario had exactly the same problem at PSV, Ronaldinho at Barca and Ronaldo at Inter.
Funnily enough last season, I got the impression that with the exception of Ireland, Robinho was too clever for our team. i noticed many a through ball that went astray from Robbie because nobody else saw the pass. I'm confident that with tevez and Adebayor beside him now, this will soon fit into place.
Team wise, I don't think it is gelling exactly how Hughes wanted. Our problems entirely stem from lack of concentration, and lack of a killer instinct, and due to his former style of play, I do think Hughes can put this in to the players given time. We seem to forget that Hughes has only actually had this group of player for the last 3 months. Moulding a team in that time is difficult, no matter who is at the helm. If it was one or two players then I would be worried, but Hughes has replaced the spine of the team, and that just takes time. The CB partnership looks shaky at times as both CBs seem to rush the ball instead of trusting the other to do their job. The FBs attack a bit too centrally for my liking and we offer the opportunity to get in behind them with a ball over the top, as proven against Fulham against Bridge and a few times against Richards.
We are still trying to find our best CM partnership and the pressure to play Ireland has knackered up our potential plans in midfield. We know that he can attack and that Barry/De Jong aren't great going forward, but this is something that Hughes has to adapt to.
Overall, I think that we do show flashes of the team we will become in periods of the game. I'm concerned at the lack of concentration in the first and last 15 minutes of a match and I'm pretty sure that this is where most of our goals are leaked. This is something to work on though and not a problem big enough to cost Hughes his job.
As I have said, I am willing to give Hughes this season, and if some of the issues identified above don't show any signs of being resolved by then, then I will also say that he isn't the right man for the job. Until then though, we have to be patient, and throwing unnecessary pressure on the team that is in the firing line from all of the clubs and especially the press does not help the situation at all.
JohnMaddocksAxe said:"Mark Hughes has spent almost a season and a half at Manchester City, with tremendous support from the club, and has managed to constantly take players and, over this period, make them perform way below the sum of their parts. This is not a sign of a capable manager."
I disagree with that statement nearly entirely. The first point that you make, about having tremendous support from the club is using a selective memory. Let's not forget that Hughes was consistently lied to by the club before September as far as available revenue and facilities was concerned. Also remember that he had no chance to spend any money when the Sheiks came in. His first pot of money came in January, which is a notoriously difficult time for any manager to buy players, let alone one who has to sell players 'a dream'. In that window, looking at his signings, I think we can agree that he did very well. De Jong, Bellamy and Bridge have all massively improved the squad. Obviously, this summer was a different story, but again, I don't think he has yet made a bad signing.
Hughes has had support from the club financially, and has had a certain amount of trust put in to him from Al-Mubarak. People forget that Thaskin basically tricked him into the club. Financially, I honestly don't believe anybody has any arguments as every single player has improved the squad and are far above the quality of the incumbent. He has also being allowed to bring in his own coaching staff, physio staff and youth staff. It is a natural reaction of any good manager in any aspect of life to want to work with people whose reactions and abilities he can judge, especially in a high pressure job. Hughes does need his 'mates' around him, as does every good manager. He needs people he can rely on, and he has brought them with him.
Training wise, from what I have seen and the reports on the forum, we seem to be working on faults that we can all identify.
On the pitch, I think his style of play hasn't quite shown through it's potential yet. My impression of Hughes from his Blackburn and Wales days, shows a style of play that is built from workrate and desire. He loves wing play, and he likes a big man up front to drop back and support the midfield wherever possible. He likes ball winners in midfield, and a pairing of a 'tough' CB and a ball player. I don't quite think we have gotten this completely correct yet, but you can see that that is the direction he is aiming for.
The next point you make, is concerning his inability to manage players to their true ability. I think you are solely referring to his management of a team, and not individually, but will cover both points for the sake of completion.
Individually, I fail to see any new signings who have come in and being any worse than they have been at their previous clubs. Perhaps Barry and Lescott, but both of these teams were built around them so you must excuse some errors in their judgement while they adapt to a style of play that is different from their usual.
I do think he has a problem with Robinho. I honestly don't think he knows what to do with a player like Robbie, as he is entirely focused on attacking and breeding defensive sensibilities into Brazilian forwards is akin to trying to get blood from a stone. Romario had exactly the same problem at PSV, Ronaldinho at Barca and Ronaldo at Inter.
Funnily enough last season, I got the impression that with the exception of Ireland, Robinho was too clever for our team. i noticed many a through ball that went astray from Robbie because nobody else saw the pass. I'm confident that with tevez and Adebayor beside him now, this will soon fit into place.
Team wise, I don't think it is gelling exactly how Hughes wanted. Our problems entirely stem from lack of concentration, and lack of a killer instinct, and due to his former style of play, I do think Hughes can put this in to the players given time. We seem to forget that Hughes has only actually had this group of player for the last 3 months. Moulding a team in that time is difficult, no matter who is at the helm. If it was one or two players then I would be worried, but Hughes has replaced the spine of the team, and that just takes time. The CB partnership looks shaky at times as both CBs seem to rush the ball instead of trusting the other to do their job. The FBs attack a bit too centrally for my liking and we offer the opportunity to get in behind them with a ball over the top, as proven against Fulham against Bridge and a few times against Richards.
We are still trying to find our best CM partnership and the pressure to play Ireland has knackered up our potential plans in midfield. We know that he can attack and that Barry/De Jong aren't great going forward, but this is something that Hughes has to adapt to.
Overall, I think that we do show flashes of the team we will become in periods of the game. I'm concerned at the lack of concentration in the first and last 15 minutes of a match and I'm pretty sure that this is where most of our goals are leaked. This is something to work on though and not a problem big enough to cost Hughes his job.
As I have said, I am willing to give Hughes this season, and if some of the issues identified above don't show any signs of being resolved by then, then I will also say that he isn't the right man for the job. Until then though, we have to be patient, and throwing unnecessary pressure on the team that is in the firing line from all of the clubs and especially the press does not help the situation at all.
JohnMaddocksAxe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 30 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 2,854
Good stuff, interesting.
I will try to remember to respond tomorrow if I get the chance. I am on my last legs here
I will try to remember to respond tomorrow if I get the chance. I am on my last legs here
Damocles said:My view as requested.
JohnMaddocksAxe said:"Mark Hughes has spent almost a season and a half at Manchester City, with tremendous support from the club, and has managed to constantly take players and, over this period, make them perform way below the sum of their parts. This is not a sign of a capable manager."
I disagree with that statement nearly entirely. The first point that you make, about having tremendous support from the club is using a selective memory. Let's not forget that Hughes was consistently lied to by the club before September as far as available revenue and facilities was concerned. Also remember that he had no chance to spend any money when the Sheiks came in. His first pot of money came in January, which is a notoriously difficult time for any manager to buy players, let alone one who has to sell players 'a dream'. In that window, looking at his signings, I think we can agree that he did very well. De Jong, Bellamy and Bridge have all massively improved the squad. Obviously, this summer was a different story, but again, I don't think he has yet made a bad signing.
Hughes has had support from the club financially, and has had a certain amount of trust put in to him from Al-Mubarak. People forget that Thaskin basically tricked him into the club. Financially, I honestly don't believe anybody has any arguments as every single player has improved the squad and are far above the quality of the incumbent. He has also being allowed to bring in his own coaching staff, physio staff and youth staff. It is a natural reaction of any good manager in any aspect of life to want to work with people whose reactions and abilities he can judge, especially in a high pressure job. Hughes does need his 'mates' around him, as does every good manager. He needs people he can rely on, and he has brought them with him.
Training wise, from what I have seen and the reports on the forum, we seem to be working on faults that we can all identify.
On the pitch, I think his style of play hasn't quite shown through it's potential yet. My impression of Hughes from his Blackburn and Wales days, shows a style of play that is built from workrate and desire. He loves wing play, and he likes a big man up front to drop back and support the midfield wherever possible. He likes ball winners in midfield, and a pairing of a 'tough' CB and a ball player. I don't quite think we have gotten this completely correct yet, but you can see that that is the direction he is aiming for.
The next point you make, is concerning his inability to manage players to their true ability. I think you are solely referring to his management of a team, and not individually, but will cover both points for the sake of completion.
Individually, I fail to see any new signings who have come in and being any worse than they have been at their previous clubs. Perhaps Barry and Lescott, but both of these teams were built around them so you must excuse some errors in their judgement while they adapt to a style of play that is different from their usual.
I do think he has a problem with Robinho. I honestly don't think he knows what to do with a player like Robbie, as he is entirely focused on attacking and breeding defensive sensibilities into Brazilian forwards is akin to trying to get blood from a stone. Romario had exactly the same problem at PSV, Ronaldinho at Barca and Ronaldo at Inter.
Funnily enough last season, I got the impression that with the exception of Ireland, Robinho was too clever for our team. i noticed many a through ball that went astray from Robbie because nobody else saw the pass. I'm confident that with tevez and Adebayor beside him now, this will soon fit into place.
Team wise, I don't think it is gelling exactly how Hughes wanted. Our problems entirely stem from lack of concentration, and lack of a killer instinct, and due to his former style of play, I do think Hughes can put this in to the players given time. We seem to forget that Hughes has only actually had this group of player for the last 3 months. Moulding a team in that time is difficult, no matter who is at the helm. If it was one or two players then I would be worried, but Hughes has replaced the spine of the team, and that just takes time. The CB partnership looks shaky at times as both CBs seem to rush the ball instead of trusting the other to do their job. The FBs attack a bit too centrally for my liking and we offer the opportunity to get in behind them with a ball over the top, as proven against Fulham against Bridge and a few times against Richards.
We are still trying to find our best CM partnership and the pressure to play Ireland has knackered up our potential plans in midfield. We know that he can attack and that Barry/De Jong aren't great going forward, but this is something that Hughes has to adapt to.
Overall, I think that we do show flashes of the team we will become in periods of the game. I'm concerned at the lack of concentration in the first and last 15 minutes of a match and I'm pretty sure that this is where most of our goals are leaked. This is something to work on though and not a problem big enough to cost Hughes his job.
As I have said, I am willing to give Hughes this season, and if some of the issues identified above don't show any signs of being resolved by then, then I will also say that he isn't the right man for the job. Until then though, we have to be patient, and throwing unnecessary pressure on the team that is in the firing line from all of the clubs and especially the press does not help the situation at all.
my feelings down to a tee well summed up m8.
Damocles said:My view as requested.
JohnMaddocksAxe said:"Mark Hughes has spent almost a season and a half at Manchester City, with tremendous support from the club, and has managed to constantly take players and, over this period, make them perform way below the sum of their parts. This is not a sign of a capable manager."
I disagree with that statement nearly entirely. The first point that you make, about having tremendous support from the club is using a selective memory. Let's not forget that Hughes was consistently lied to by the club before September as far as available revenue and facilities was concerned. Also remember that he had no chance to spend any money when the Sheiks came in. His first pot of money came in January, which is a notoriously difficult time for any manager to buy players, let alone one who has to sell players 'a dream'. In that window, looking at his signings, I think we can agree that he did very well. De Jong, Bellamy and Bridge have all massively improved the squad. Obviously, this summer was a different story, but again, I don't think he has yet made a bad signing.
Hughes has had support from the club financially, and has had a certain amount of trust put in to him from Al-Mubarak. People forget that Thaskin basically tricked him into the club. Financially, I honestly don't believe anybody has any arguments as every single player has improved the squad and are far above the quality of the incumbent. He has also being allowed to bring in his own coaching staff, physio staff and youth staff. It is a natural reaction of any good manager in any aspect of life to want to work with people whose reactions and abilities he can judge, especially in a high pressure job. Hughes does need his 'mates' around him, as does every good manager. He needs people he can rely on, and he has brought them with him.
Training wise, from what I have seen and the reports on the forum, we seem to be working on faults that we can all identify.
On the pitch, I think his style of play hasn't quite shown through it's potential yet. My impression of Hughes from his Blackburn and Wales days, shows a style of play that is built from workrate and desire. He loves wing play, and he likes a big man up front to drop back and support the midfield wherever possible. He likes ball winners in midfield, and a pairing of a 'tough' CB and a ball player. I don't quite think we have gotten this completely correct yet, but you can see that that is the direction he is aiming for.
The next point you make, is concerning his inability to manage players to their true ability. I think you are solely referring to his management of a team, and not individually, but will cover both points for the sake of completion.
Individually, I fail to see any new signings who have come in and being any worse than they have been at their previous clubs. Perhaps Barry and Lescott, but both of these teams were built around them so you must excuse some errors in their judgement while they adapt to a style of play that is different from their usual.
I do think he has a problem with Robinho. I honestly don't think he knows what to do with a player like Robbie, as he is entirely focused on attacking and breeding defensive sensibilities into Brazilian forwards is akin to trying to get blood from a stone. Romario had exactly the same problem at PSV, Ronaldinho at Barca and Ronaldo at Inter.
Funnily enough last season, I got the impression that with the exception of Ireland, Robinho was too clever for our team. i noticed many a through ball that went astray from Robbie because nobody else saw the pass. I'm confident that with tevez and Adebayor beside him now, this will soon fit into place.
Team wise, I don't think it is gelling exactly how Hughes wanted. Our problems entirely stem from lack of concentration, and lack of a killer instinct, and due to his former style of play, I do think Hughes can put this in to the players given time. We seem to forget that Hughes has only actually had this group of player for the last 3 months. Moulding a team in that time is difficult, no matter who is at the helm. If it was one or two players then I would be worried, but Hughes has replaced the spine of the team, and that just takes time. The CB partnership looks shaky at times as both CBs seem to rush the ball instead of trusting the other to do their job. The FBs attack a bit too centrally for my liking and we offer the opportunity to get in behind them with a ball over the top, as proven against Fulham against Bridge and a few times against Richards.
We are still trying to find our best CM partnership and the pressure to play Ireland has knackered up our potential plans in midfield. We know that he can attack and that Barry/De Jong aren't great going forward, but this is something that Hughes has to adapt to.
Overall, I think that we do show flashes of the team we will become in periods of the game. I'm concerned at the lack of concentration in the first and last 15 minutes of a match and I'm pretty sure that this is where most of our goals are leaked. This is something to work on though and not a problem big enough to cost Hughes his job.
As I have said, I am willing to give Hughes this season, and if some of the issues identified above don't show any signs of being resolved by then, then I will also say that he isn't the right man for the job. Until then though, we have to be patient, and throwing unnecessary pressure on the team that is in the firing line from all of the clubs and especially the press does not help the situation at all.
Selective Memory?
Didn't have adequate resources up until the September?
So Jo and Robinho don't count?
And, presumably, neither do SWP, Kompany, Zabaleta and Tal Ben Haim?
Spent more than just about any manager in the Premiershiop, yet you'd have us believe he wasn't backed?
Cookie monster
Well-Known Member
But a season of draws sees you go down.C_T_I_D said:We've lost once this season ;-)
I thought it was pretty well known that SWP and Robinho were Mansour signings?
Zab cost 5 million which is good for a five year dealer.
Jo was a Sven signing that we couldn't get out of.
Kompany cost 6 million and is great value.
TBH was a Hughes signing which, TBH, I forgot about. You are correct that he failed on this one though.
Zab cost 5 million which is good for a five year dealer.
Jo was a Sven signing that we couldn't get out of.
Kompany cost 6 million and is great value.
TBH was a Hughes signing which, TBH, I forgot about. You are correct that he failed on this one though.