Grenfell Tower block disaster

Gelsons Dad said:
The testing agency who issued the original certification did something wrong. But that will only apply if the current tests are the same. There is normally an acceptable means of compliance (AMC) for testing and the AMC may change even if the regulation doesn't. It's not black and white but it is fucking tragic.
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So effectively they can change the way how it is tested. No problem if they now retest everything they did previously and obviously inform the relevant people. Effectively action a recall. Has this happened ?
 
SilverFox2 said:
So effectively they can change the way how it is tested. No problem if they now retest everything they did previously and obviously inform the relevant people. Effectively action a recall. Has this happened ?
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I don't know how it works in the building industry but in aviation it happens a lot. However, unless it's critical "grandfather rights" apply so as long as the equipment passed the standards at the time of certification it isn't recalled. For safety critical equipment modifications are mandated but with grace periods depending on the risk. In the worst case fleets are grounded until a safe solution is found.

In the case of this cladding, there will be a lot of people who will need rehousing if they decide it's too dangerous to continue living in these blocks. That in itself has risks involved. I would imagine they will either come up with a mitigation system or a replacement outer layer.
 
karen7 said:
Round-the-clock fire patrols are being put in place at buildings where concerns have been raised about fire safety.Sky News
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Exactly what should have happened in camden as well instead of the almost stage managed and publicised throwing out on the street of over 800 families which im pleased to now see Camden council and its leaders are getting shit for, rightly so!
 
Gelsons Dad said:
The testing agency who issued the original certification did something wrong. But that will only apply if the current tests are the same. There is normally an acceptable means of compliance (AMC) for testing and the AMC may change even if the regulation doesn't. It's not black and white but it is fucking tragic.
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It also depends on when the original tests were done as the standards were updated slightly in 2010. So it is quite possible for tests to have passed before that data and fail after it.
That said no one in the media has been totally clear as to what tests are being carried out. Is it the standard construction material combustability test or is it a composite test of some sort based on the initial findings of the fire investigation?
 
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franksinatra said:
That is a good question Silver Fox. Read. Products tested and passed have been used in this block and are now being withdrawn (That is not to
suggest anything untoward as it is very early days and a sensible precaution) . Statements in the media have suggested the composite panels and insulation both failed the tests. Its going to be a long drawn out process until full understanding of what has happened.
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Once the products have been tested and approved, who is responsible for ensuring that contractors only use approved products for the purpose that they have been approved?
 
Gelsons Dad said:
I don't know how it works in the building industry but in aviation it happens a lot. However, unless it's critical "grandfather rights" apply so as long as the equipment passed the standards at the time of certification it isn't recalled. For safety critical equipment modifications are mandated but with grace periods depending on the risk. In the worst case fleets are grounded until a safe solution is found.

In the case of this cladding, there will be a lot of people who will need rehousing if they decide it's too dangerous to continue living in these blocks. That in itself has risks involved. I would imagine they will either come up with a mitigation system or a replacement outer layer.
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Regarding cladding, how would they know which cladding fails the new test unless they actually retested all the ones that previously passed.?

After the disaster the cladding is now being tested and apparently failing, I appreciate the scale of this fire was unusual but surely if they had sufficient grounds to suspect a potential failure then retest should have been done if only to pass on the problem of what to do to those that may have used it.
The decision to retest would have given them a big problem if failure occurs so possibly they thought let sleeping dogs lie.

The white goods industry manufacturers often recall products because of potential failure usually involving fire or electrical mishap.
 
May made statement in the Commons about the fire and repeatedly failed to commit to reimburse councils for making high rise safe. Just after agreeing a billion for NI.

But she also responded to a question about fire service cuts by saying at Grenfell it was not just firefighters but urban search and rescue teams involved. Surely the only USAR teams in London are drawn from London firefighters?
 
Pertinent letter posted in the Times today:

DDQVyoKXkAEkoPr.jpg


Wonder whatever happened to this chap's son?
 
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Vic said:
May made statement in the Commons about the fire and repeatedly failed to commit to reimburse councils for making high rise safe. Just after agreeing a billion for NI.

But she also responded to a question about fire service cuts by saying at Grenfell it was not just firefighters but urban search and rescue teams involved. Surely the only USAR teams in London are drawn from London firefighters?
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USAR teams are made up from all different brigades, initially there will be a small contingent from London and they will be supplemented from around the country.
 
my friend lives in bickerdike court longsight and was told today that their cladding did not pass the new government test. I think they will get new cladding but have been told no sprinklers. it is a 15 storey block.
 
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/150/richard-binder-central-operations-group-manager.asp
Blue Maverick said:
USAR teams are made up from all different brigades, initially there will be a small contingent from London and they will be supplemented from around the country.
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London FB has its own USAR teams. There's also the International teams (i.e. UK firefighters going to disasters abroad). Have they been deployed to Grenfell? If not (even if they have) it's not going to do much to lessen the effects of the cuts. With more to come.
 
Vic said:
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/150/richard-binder-central-operations-group-manager.asp
London FB has its own USAR teams. There's also the International teams (i.e. UK firefighters going to disasters abroad). Have they been deployed to Grenfell? If not (even if they have) it's not going to do much to lessen the effects of the cuts. With more to come.
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Each brigade had their own USAR teams I know in the north west a lot have been amalgamated, I would think USAR teams may have been deployed, I certainly saw dogs on the TV initially after the fire was out, they are mainly used to make structures safe to ensure others can go in and search.
 
mcfc49 said:
my friend lives in bickerdike court longsight and was told today that their cladding did not pass the new government test.
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There is no "New test", they all failed under the testing procedure that has been in existence for years.
 
Interesting article from the beeb on how building standards have been bypassed.

Why do England's high-rises keep failing fire tests? - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40418266

It would appear the change in the regulatory mechanisms in 2006 for design safety compliance is indeed the loophole through which the Building Industry via the Building Control Alliance (BCA) industry body has driven a tank through called "BCA guidance documentation" that provides a 'desktop study' mechanism fir certifying cladding materials.

Ladies and gentlemen I give you exhibit A; the 'Smoking Gun'

Fecking unbelievable....
 
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Gabriel said:
Pertinent letter posted in the Times today:

DDQVyoKXkAEkoPr.jpg


Wonder whatever happened to this chap's son?
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He became a senior member of a government that oversaw a failure to review reports on fire regs and high rise buildings because it might have been costly for developers to implement so its rich his dad submits this letter without declaring his son's own potential culpability as part of that governments obfuscation in the event of any future enquiry
 
Vic said:
May made statement in the Commons about the fire and repeatedly failed to commit to reimburse councils for making high rise safe. Just after agreeing a billion for NI.

But she also responded to a question about fire service cuts by saying at Grenfell it was not just firefighters but urban search and rescue teams involved. Surely the only USAR teams in London are drawn from London firefighters?
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she is too busy distancing government and its ministers from any blame enquiry to promise that sort of support
 
bluethrunthru said:
He became a senior member of a government that oversaw a failure to review reports on fire regs and high rise buildings because it might have been costly for developers to implement so its rich his dad submits this letter without declaring his son's own potential culpability as part of that governments obfuscation in the event of any future enquiry
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Did you expect him to reference his own son's putative culpability in that letter? If so, you have discernibly high expectations of people.
 
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