Grenfell Tower block disaster

[BlueAnorak]

Windows breaking seems to be the problem for fire to reach inside.
Are glass clad buildings more or less likely to be susceptible to fire than ordinary glass windows ?

Glass in all 18m+ buildings has to be fire resistant and glass in glass skyscrapers has to be somewhat shock resistant too. See link below. As the designers/builders fecked up the cladding at Grenfel Tower, you never can tell what they could have done with the glass. That said the cladding turning into chimneys would have subjected the windows to extreme temperatures that would have melted it.

http://www.ggf.org.uk/groups/fire-resistant-glazing-group/fire_resistant_glass_faq

 

[SilverFox2]

Glass in all 18m+ buildings has to be fire resistant and glass in glass skyscrapers has to be somewhat shock resistant too. See link below. As the designers/builders fecked up the cladding at Grenfel Tower, you never can tell what they could have done with the glass. That said the cladding turning into chimneys would have subjected the windows to extreme temperatures that would have melted it.

http://www.ggf.org.uk/groups/fire-resistant-glazing-group/fire_resistant_glass_faq

Thanks again BA, I suppose also the heat may have distorted the frames causing glass breakage or gaps in the glass to frame integrity etc..
It really is disturbing to see how our best designs for normal living and temperatures are simply destroyed when fire gets hold of them. The brickwork etc. thankfully withstands the flames/

Builders and designers must be aware of these flaws in the materials they use so it becomes increasingly difficult for ignorant people like myself to understand how any caring person or group of people could even consider them for high rise buildings without first of all protecting them from the risk of fire. To effectively increase the risk of a fire spreading is simply not understandable.

I wonder how they got building insurance.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I see Stockport are going to retro fit sprinklers, whilst I applaud this, the cynic in me can see us forever turning out to flooding some in high rise now. People will inevitably set them off.

 

[Blue Hefner]

LBC asking if those found living illegally should be deported

I'm no bleading heart but I'm not keen on the idea of piling on misery

 

[Vic]

Limited combustability tests to pass UK code 0 requires fire to spread relatively slowly. A hell of a sight less slowly than what happened in Grenfell Tower anyway where the gap between the quikly burnt insulation and the slower burning tiles turned into a chimney sucking the fire and heat up the building breaking the windows and starting a fire on the floor above.

Surely that has yet to be determined.

LBC asking if those found living illegally should be deported

I'm no bleading heart but I'm not keen on the idea of piling on misery

I'm not sure what's meant by "living illegally". That this should even be asked shows how awful a country we've become. In some cases there would be nothing to deport. How satisfying is that?

 

[bluethrunthru]

LBC asking if those found living illegally should be deported

I'm no bleading heart but I'm not keen on the idea of piling on misery

Thats LBC for ya - FOX News on the radio..........what do they suggest they do with the deceased who were living there illegally - re-patriate their corpses? Which of their charmless presenters came up with this one? This time of the morning I am guessing the ever loving Mr Ferrari?

 

[Vic]

Windows breaking seems to be the problem for fire to reach inside.
Are glass clad buildings more or less likely to be susceptible to fire than ordinary glass windows ?

I'm not sure of the science but high narrow windows - but not so narrow as to create the trench effect - seem better than wide and low (i.e. not tall) windows.

The use of some constructional features and facade geometry, such as vertical and horizontal projections, can reduce the effect of exterior fire spread while others may contribute to the intensity. For example, balconies, by disrupting vertical air movement, can serve as 'flame deflectors' and reduce the effect and intensity of upward spread. However, vertical channels, which may be formed by building recesses, exterior service runs or privacy screening, channel the fire upwards and can increase the intensity by as much as 50 per cent.

Generally the greater the width of the opening in the facade, the greater the risk of external ignition. So the avoidance of low and wide windows can reduce the risk, whereas tall windows project flames away from the walls, which produces relatively lower thermal exposure.

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/home/burning-issues/181812.article

 

[SilverFox2]

If the spread of fire via cladding or not occurs external to windows is a complete sprinkler system necessary ?
By that I mean can the sprinkler system simply target the outside of the building ?

 

[Vic]

I see Stockport are going to retro fit sprinklers, whilst I applaud this, the cynic in me can see us forever turning out to flooding some in high rise now. People will inevitably set them off.

Well, if someone's determined or disturbed enough to set off a sprinkler maliciously they may be determined or disturbed enough to set fire to stuff. I can't find the link but you can get sprinklers that turn off when the heat's gone.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Surely that has yet to be determined.

The outside of the building caught fire incredibly quickly and the fire raced up and around the block within 25 mins cutting of people's means of escape - there is not a cat in hell's chance of the exterior cladding system at Grenfel Tower (insulation + exterior aluminium tiles + fire blocks every couple of floors) being of "limited combustability" as defined by British Standrads.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Well, if someone's determined or disturbed enough to set off a sprinkler maliciously they may be determined or disturbed enough to set fire to stuff. I can't find the link but you can get sprinklers that turn off when the heat's gone.

I appreciate that but believe me they'll just do it for a laugh, bit different to setting fire to a place, they know it will cause damage just not kill anyone.

 

[Blue Maverick]

If the spread of fire via cladding or not occurs external to windows is a complete sprinkler system necessary ?
By that I mean can the sprinkler system simply target the outside of the building ?

There is I believe a system that can be attached on the outside of the roof that creates a waterfall effect curtain , I'm not sure if that needs a large tank on the roof though.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Thats LBC for ya - FOX News on the radio..........what do they suggest they do with the deceased who were living there illegally - re-patriate their corpses? Which of their charmless presenters came up with this one? This time of the morning I am guessing the ever loving Mr Ferrari?

I tend to only listen between 10am-1pm, that is the James O'Brien show, he's pretty good. The question was asked over Twitter. Not sure if it was Ferarri's show or they were looking for options for shows later in the day

In reply to the question I suggested that regardless of some of the survivors potential illegal status, they have fuck all, survived this fire, seen goodness knows what in terms of friends and families burning to death and that perhaps we should let them stay.

At 8am this morning, I didn't realise that was a particularly controversial opinion. As it turns out, it is. I've been called a 'typical lefty' and been told my position could 'encourage arson' - have a look at my twitter feed @Spricey32, if you want to see the cynical, bitter and generally horrible side of some people

 

[bluethrunthru]

I tend to only listen between 10am-1pm, that is the James O'Brien show, he's pretty good. The question was asked over Twitter. Not sure if it was Ferarri's show or they were looking for options for shows later in the day

In reply to the question I suggested that regardless of some of the survivors potential illegal status, they have fuck all, survived this fire, seen goodness knows what in terms of friends and families burning to death and that perhaps we should let them stay.

At 8am this morning, I didn't realise that was a particularly controversial opinion. As it turns out, it is. I've been called a 'typical lefty' and been told my position could 'encourage arson' - have a look at my twitter feed @Spricey32, if you want to see the cynical, bitter and generally horrible side of some people

I don't mind O'Brien except that he tries a little too hard to be the counter balance to Ferrari - Hartley Brewer and so on. He becomes reasonable to a fault if thats possible?

 

[Blue Hefner]

I don't mind O'Brien except that he tries a little too hard to be the counter balance to Ferrari - Hartley Brewer and so on. He becomes reasonable to a fault if thats possible?

I know what you mean. He seems to go to extraordinary lengths to understand every point of view. Not a necessarily a bad thing, though

 

[bluethrunthru]

I know what you mean. He seems to go to extraordinary lengths to understand every point of view. Not a necessarily a bad thing, though

No - I suppose in reality the world wuld be a better place if more people tried at least to understand an alternate view to the one they hold.

 

[Manc in London]

I don't mind O'Brien except that he tries a little too hard to be the counter balance to Ferrari - Hartley Brewer and so on. He becomes reasonable to a fault if thats possible?

I don't listen to LBC but have come come across all three on TV. It could be that O'Brien may appear more reasonable because he is far more intelligent than the other two.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

LBC asking if those found living illegally should be deported

I'm no bleading heart but I'm not keen on the idea of piling on misery

Well its a stupid question posed to provoke the ignorant. If someone was found illegally living in my loft tonight and the immigration service came out first thing in the morning to sort it, they still wouldnt be deported

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

If we're going to even begin to resolve the housing crisis we need to relax the rules in relation to greenfield housing developments around the big cities, especially London.

It's not ideal, environmentally speaking, but the wider needs of society must come first.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

If we're going to even begin to resolve the housing crisis we need to relax the rules in relation to greenfield housing developments around the big cities, especially London.

It's not ideal, environmentally speaking, but the wider needs of society must come first.

Errrrr totally disagree with this because rural is not where people want to be (and the infrastructure isn't there to support buses / schools / GP's etc.) My suggest would be

1) Compulsory purchase all unoccupied property (unoccupied for two years or more) and refurbish if necessary.
2) Inner city developments warehouse conversions etc (similar to whats happening in Manchester / Liverpool)
3) Develop Brownfield sites


then look at outward expansion into the countryside.