PJMCC1UK said:
chestervegasblue said:
Good points indeed. Excellent questions.
Biblically speaking, salvation has always been a product of the content of a person's faith. Those who believed in God would be saved. Because Christ was present at creation (not an indication that I am a world was created 4000 years ago person), his death could pay for the sins of those who died before he was on earth. Jews couldn't have faith in a man who hadn't existed yet, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be made righteous in the eyes of the Father by the son's sacrifice. They still had to choose to have faith in God.
On the sacrifice point, it's not how he died that was the point (although it did fulfil tonnes of prophecies, partic. Psalm 22), but the fact that he was obedient to death. If he was the son of God, Jesus had unlimited power at his disposal. He could have very easily avoided the cross, but he didn't.
On your "created with sin" point: We were created with sin, but with the opportunity to sin. It's actually a massive expression of love to give someone the opportunity not to love you back.
Why would he need to sacrifice himself in the way that he did? Because Jews knew that story. It actually makes sense of God asking Abraham to kill Isaac, but all along intending to use the lamb as a sacrifice.
Hope these help a little. Going to sleep now, but I'll check back here in the morning.
I've also had a personal reply from BBB that in parts agrees but in a completely different way to what you have stated.
I really don't get the reasoning behind why God would kill his own son/himself in order to forgive everyone before or since. He apparently had the power to create us all as well as the entire universe. So how is he powerless to forgive us without this barbaric act? ''The Jews knew this story'' I may be missing something but I really don't get that statement.
Ultimately though there is a complete lack of reason for the crucifixion.
And reading that Psalm, it doesn't make any real prophecy to me. When exactly was it written? I believe the old testament was the original Jewish beliefs. So if they had this so called prophecy then why reject Jesus? Surely Judaism should have become obsolete.
My questions are more to garner why people believe what they believe within religion. Especially with all the contradiction in the so called infallible text of the bible. I may come across as attacking but that is not a purpose and I'd love for once that a thread like this doesn't descend into the depths.
Thanks for responding, I'll copy and paste your questions and answer them one by one:
He apparently had the power to create us all as well as the entire universe. So how is he powerless to forgive us without this barbaric act?
In giving us free will to choose not to follow him/believe in him, God gives us control of our own destiny. Like any good and loving parent, he teaches us the best way to live but then gives us the opportunity to make our own decisions. I believe this is an intentional limitation of his own power, because He wants us to choose to love him rather than being forced to. Before his son came to earth, the Father had the opportunity to, and still could change the goalposts completely.
But he chooses not to. Not out of reluctance or anger, but because he respects the choices that his children make. But He wants more than anything else to be reconciled to each and every one of us.
Enter Jesus.
Jesus was sent to live a sinless life, which would make a way for people to be reconciled to God as they would be "clothed in Jesus' righteousness". Christ dying for humanity's sin and rising again made an irremovable path that allows us to enter eternal life should we choose it. This was the only way that God could reconcile us to himself without removing the choice he had given man at the beginning.
As for the barbaric nature of his death, whilst Jesus knew it was going to end that way, it was the people who he pissed off (the pharisees, sadducees etc) who actually ensured that he was crucified. Having the Romans do it (the most ruthless and feared Empire ever) actually reassures me that he was actually killed. These guys were killing machines, they did not conquer entire nations by almost killing people to the extent they could walk around again 3 days later.
''The Jews knew this story'' I may be missing something but I really don't get that statement.
In those days, communication relied heavily on word of mouth. Good, clear explanations and examples people could relate to were crucial to something being understood. The story of Abraham and Isaac culminates in God telling Abraham to sacrifice and innocent lamb in place of his son. It's part of the reason why Christ is sometimes referred to as the "lamb of God", but it also makes sense of an otherwise bizarre test of faith where God asks Abraham to kill his only son who he's waited years and years for.
The Jews knew the story, and so they could immediately grasp the idea of Jesus' innocent life being substituted for all humanity's sin-filled lives.
And reading that Psalm, it doesn't make any real prophecy to me. When exactly was it written?
This Psalm was written around 1000BC. It's the detail that amazes me, take this excerpt for example:
"my bones are on display;
people stare(AO) and gloat over me.(AP)
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots(AQ) for my garment."
This is an incredibly accurate description of the crucifixion, right down to the Roman soliders gambling for Jesus' robe. My faith isn't founded in these details, but it is encouraged by them.
I believe the old testament was the original Jewish beliefs. So if they had this so called prophecy then why reject Jesus? Surely Judaism should have become obsolete.
Simply put, the Jewish leaders at the time were so obsessed with power that they didn't like the idea of a carpenter from Nazareth showing them up. Despite all the prophecies (e.g. Micah 5:2, Zechariah 9:9) most of them were determined to catch Jesus out instead with his interpretation of the law instead of recognising his wisdom. When they couldn't find fault in him, they simply killed Jesus for blasphemy because he said he was the Son of God. To the best of my knowledge, the only reason why Judaism is not obsolete was because they refused to believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah.
Hope these help.
