He is Risen...

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

To an extent it is. But there are some values to every religion that undeniably are missing in society today. Its just that the rest of the baggage just makes it seem pointless.

But to be fair you don't need religion for a moral blueprint - most of us know that killing,lying and stealing are wrong without the bible,or any other religious doctrinal book telling us,and the one about coveting your neighbour's ox just shows how relevant that book is nowadays.
Religious folk know that killing is wrong through the 10 commandments,but it has never stopped them killing others for believing in a different imaginary friend.

I'm not sure that's true. It may appear that now we don't need it for a moral blueprint, but we are a product of a history (as you rightly recognise in your third point) that clearly did.

If you take away the cultural "ox" reference from your second point, I'd argue it's entirely relevant to the present day. Loosely interpreted, we're told not to be envious of the possessions of those around us. In a society obsessed with consumerism (which clearly is unfulfilling otherwise it wouldn't exist), I think it's a very appropriate message.

So you finally choose to address one of my posts when it suits?
Oh well - better late than never I suppose.
But all you have given us is the usual rhetoric 'well,it's all about interpretation - just swap iPad for ox',which is the default cop-out when the devout are tackled on the sheer folly of what the bible actually says,some of which,in the Old Testament in particular,is truly hateful,misogynistic and discriminatory bile,if you accept the whole thing,rather than cherrypick the nice bits to suit.
Most of human history happened long before the bible,(unless you happen to be one of those bonkers creationists),and philosphers and scholars had devised a moral code thousands of years before biblical times - the 10 commandments just confirmed that existing code.
And as for the 'hell' of rampant consumerism,the Church of England is the single biggest landowner and the richest institution in Britain,yet I don't see much evidence of them redistributing wealth to the poor as Jesus did.

 

[shevtheblue]

You're welcome, and you're right; we are all adopted children of God, the Father and creator. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son, his literal earthly offspring. Christians identify themselves as belonging to Jesus because they can only belong to the Father through him, as on the cross he traded every person's sin for his righteousness. Without that, Christians can't belong to the Father.

How are we adopted to God if we are created by Him though? And how is Jesus the only literal son? Science has shown a lot of cases of immaculate conceptions, so surely they are also begotten children?

I believe God created the process of conception and pregnancy, he's empowered humans to be the re-creators through it. I'd be interested to read about these other examples of human immaculate conception, do you have a link?

-- Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:07 am --

You're welcome, and you're right; we are all adopted children of God, the Father and creator. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son, his literal earthly offspring. Christians identify themselves as belonging to Jesus because they can only belong to the Father through him, as on the cross he traded every person's sin for his righteousness. Without that, Christians can't belong to the Father.

*Disclaimer* - this of course does not apply to you if you are gay or female...

I disagree with you there.

So in if that is true, then adam and eve would be the first son and daughter?
I read it a long long time ago but i must admit, google is not helping me today :smile: maybe time has confused the science with history part as there do seem to be a lot of mentions of virgin births.

Anyhow care to give your thoughts on my question re jesus dying on thr cross a few pages back?

 

[shevtheblue]

But to be fair you don't need religion for a moral blueprint - most of us know that killing,lying and stealing are wrong without the bible,or any other religious doctrinal book telling us,and the one about coveting your neighbour's ox just shows how relevant that book is nowadays.
Religious folk know that killing is wrong through the 10 commandments,but it has never stopped them killing others for believing in a different imaginary friend.

I'm not sure that's true. It may appear that now we don't need it for a moral blueprint, but we are a product of a history (as you rightly recognise in your third point) that clearly did.

If you take away the cultural "ox" reference from your second point, I'd argue it's entirely relevant to the present day. Loosely interpreted, we're told not to be envious of the possessions of those around us. In a society obsessed with consumerism (which clearly is unfulfilling otherwise it wouldn't exist), I think it's a very appropriate message.

So you finally choose to address one of my posts when it suits?
Oh well - better late than never I suppose.
But all you have given us is the usual rhetoric 'well,it's all about interpretation - just swap iPad for ox',which is the default cop-out when the devout are tackled on the sheer folly of what the bible actually says,some of which,in the Old Testament in particular,is truly hateful,misogynistic and discriminatory bile,if you accept the whole thing,rather than cherrypick the nice bits to suit.
Most of human history happened long before the bible,(unless you happen to be one of those bonkers creationists),and philosphers and scholars had devised a moral code thousands of years before biblical times - the 10 commandments just confirmed that existing code.
And as for the 'hell' of rampant consumerism,the Church of England is the single biggest landowner and the richest institution in Britain,yet I don't see much evidence of them redistributing wealth to the poor as Jesus did.

Some good points. But i think you cant take the book literally if its that old (dependent on which version you are reading :wink:). Morals have always existed but not in any structured way. But like you say there is a lot of cherry picking needed to get out the negative things that who knows, may have been added in during the various translations and reworks to control people.

 

[Ammy]

You're welcome, and you're right; we are all adopted children of God, the Father and creator. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son, his literal earthly offspring. Christians identify themselves as belonging to Jesus because they can only belong to the Father through him, as on the cross he traded every person's sin for his righteousness. Without that, Christians can't belong to the Father.

How are we adopted to God if we are created by Him though? And how is Jesus the only literal son? Science has shown a lot of cases of immaculate conceptions, so surely they are also begotten children?

I believe God created the process of conception and pregnancy, he's empowered humans to be the re-creators through it. I'd be interested to read about these other examples of human immaculate conception, do you have a link?

-- Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:07 am --

You're welcome, and you're right; we are all adopted children of God, the Father and creator. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son, his literal earthly offspring. Christians identify themselves as belonging to Jesus because they can only belong to the Father through him, as on the cross he traded every person's sin for his righteousness. Without that, Christians can't belong to the Father.

*Disclaimer* - this of course does not apply to you if you are gay or female...

I disagree with you there.

Really?
Women are not able to join in the hierarchy of your group and Gays are not recognised as having any rights at all.
Not fantastic examples of equality in the eyes of your deity

 

[chestervegasblue]

But to be fair you don't need religion for a moral blueprint - most of us know that killing,lying and stealing are wrong without the bible,or any other religious doctrinal book telling us,and the one about coveting your neighbour's ox just shows how relevant that book is nowadays.
Religious folk know that killing is wrong through the 10 commandments,but it has never stopped them killing others for believing in a different imaginary friend.

I'm not sure that's true. It may appear that now we don't need it for a moral blueprint, but we are a product of a history (as you rightly recognise in your third point) that clearly did.

If you take away the cultural "ox" reference from your second point, I'd argue it's entirely relevant to the present day. Loosely interpreted, we're told not to be envious of the possessions of those around us. In a society obsessed with consumerism (which clearly is unfulfilling otherwise it wouldn't exist), I think it's a very appropriate message.

So you finally choose to address one of my posts when it suits?
Oh well - better late than never I suppose.
But all you have given us is the usual rhetoric 'well,it's all about interpretation - just swap iPad for ox',which is the default cop-out when the devout are tackled on the sheer folly of what the bible actually says,some of which,in the Old Testament in particular,is truly hateful,misogynistic and discriminatory bile,if you accept the whole thing,rather than cherrypick the nice bits to suit.
Most of human history happened long before the bible,(unless you happen to be one of those bonkers creationists),and philosphers and scholars had devised a moral code thousands of years before biblical times - the 10 commandments just confirmed that existing code.
And as for the 'hell' of rampant consumerism,the Church of England is the single biggest landowner and the richest institution in Britain,yet I don't see much evidence of them redistributing wealth to the poor as Jesus did.

If you're referring to the Tory Gay Marriage thread, you stated an opinion after I stated mine. You didn't ask me a question, so I didn't feel obliged to reply. You feel it's possible to teach impartially, I think it isn't as we are influenced by so many things. You're entitled to your opinion. If you have asked me a question in a thread since, then I apologise that I missed it.

It is possible to be a Christian without accepting the "whole thing", because I am a person who can be inspired by God, but is very prone to sin. I do think it unrealistic that everything the Old Testament was how God intended it to be. I'm comfortable with this because humans have been screwing up God's intentions since forever AND that Jesus (I'm glad you mentioned him!) came as the fulfilment of the law, and lived out and taught what should matter to believers.

On your "confirmed the existing code" point. The Israelites were worshipping idols when Moses returned from Sinai, - an "Eye for an eye" (not a commandment, I know) was actually revolutionary in its time because people were dishing out punishments disproportionate to crime.

I agree the CofE could do much more than it's doing. I don't have much control over that I'm afraid, but give Justin Welby a chance as ABC, he's a good man.

 

[chestervegasblue]

How are we adopted to God if we are created by Him though? And how is Jesus the only literal son? Science has shown a lot of cases of immaculate conceptions, so surely they are also begotten children?

I believe God created the process of conception and pregnancy, he's empowered humans to be the re-creators through it. I'd be interested to read about these other examples of human immaculate conception, do you have a link?

-- Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:07 am --

*Disclaimer* - this of course does not apply to you if you are gay or female...

I disagree with you there.

Really?
Women are not able to join in the hierarchy of your group and Gays are not recognised as having any rights at all.
Not fantastic examples of equality in the eyes of your deity

Just because individuals (in the case of women bishops, the laity (not the bishops themselves or clergy)) believe Women and Gays have no or diminished belonging in Christ doesn't mean that they do in the sight of God. My wife and I were married by one of the first ordained female vicars, and I know she would be amazing as a Bishop.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

I believe God created the process of conception and pregnancy, he's empowered humans to be the re-creators through it. I'd be interested to read about these other examples of human immaculate conception, do you have a link?

-- Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:07 am --



I disagree with you there.

Really?
Women are not able to join in the hierarchy of your group and Gays are not recognised as having any rights at all.
Not fantastic examples of equality in the eyes of your deity

Just because individuals (in the case of women bishops, the laity (not the bishops themselves or clergy)) believe Women and Gays have no or diminished belonging in Christ doesn't mean that they do in the sight of God. My wife and I were married by one of the first ordained female vicars, and I know she would be amazing as a Bishop.

Thanks for your reply earlier - hopefully the debate can continue in a similarly even-tempered vein,as it was prior to Pauldominic gatecrashing the goodwill party by informing us atheists that we were going to hell in a handcart!
Just out of interest,just how do you view the infighting within the CofE regarding the issue of homosexuality?

 

[chestervegasblue]

Really?
Women are not able to join in the hierarchy of your group and Gays are not recognised as having any rights at all.
Not fantastic examples of equality in the eyes of your deity

Just because individuals (in the case of women bishops, the laity (not the bishops themselves or clergy)) believe Women and Gays have no or diminished belonging in Christ doesn't mean that they do in the sight of God. My wife and I were married by one of the first ordained female vicars, and I know she would be amazing as a Bishop.

Thanks for your reply earlier - hopefully the debate can continue in a similarly even-tempered vein,as it was prior to Pauldominic gatecrashing the goodwill party by informing us atheists that we were going to hell in a handcart!
Just out of interest,just how do you view the infighting within the CofE regarding the issue of homosexuality?

No problem.

I'm embroiled in it actually, as a youth worker for a CofE church. I posted this article on here a few days ago

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.christianpost.com/news/rob-bell-on-gay-marriage-support-god-pulling-us-ahead-to-affirm-gay-brothers-sisters-92395/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.christianpost.com/news/rob-b ... ers-92395/</a>

Admittedly, it only refers to gay marriage, but I agree with Rob Bell that Christians should be encouraging fidelity and not guilting people about the way that they feel.

As I said earlier, there are much more pressing issues that the Church needs to be tackling, the one's Jesus told them to! I'm very excited about the new Pope and the new Archbishop on that score.

 

[pominoz]

Thanks makes a bit more sense but i suppose its open to interpretation.
So how come we are not all seen as gods children? In christianity it seems like man belongs to jesus more than they do to god? Of god makes us all, the surely Jesus is not gods only son?

You're welcome, and you're right; we are all adopted children of God, the Father and creator. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son, his literal earthly offspring. Christians identify themselves as belonging to Jesus because they can only belong to the Father through him, as on the cross he traded every person's sin for his righteousness. Without that, Christians can't belong to the Father.

How are we adopted to God if we are created by Him though? And how is Jesus the only literal son? Science has shown a lot of cases of immaculate conceptions, so surely they are also begotten children?

Really?
Care to share?

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

You're welcome, and you're right; we are all adopted children of God, the Father and creator. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son, his literal earthly offspring. Christians identify themselves as belonging to Jesus because they can only belong to the Father through him, as on the cross he traded every person's sin for his righteousness. Without that, Christians can't belong to the Father.

How are we adopted to God if we are created by Him though? And how is Jesus the only literal son? Science has shown a lot of cases of immaculate conceptions, so surely they are also begotten children?

Really?
Care to share?

I think that most pregnancies are due to less-than-immaculate contraception.