hillsborough anniversary

[M18CTID]

I honestly can't believe that given these circumstances, the numbers of Liverpool fans pitching up in Sheffield that day without tickets was "insignificant". I know I wasn't there but I would estimate that those without tickets would've probably been in their thousands - anything below that is a naive estimate in my opinion. So for me, if there were thousands of ticketless fans in the vicinity at the point the gates were opened, then that is a significant amount. I'm not saying disaster would've been totally averted if nobody turned up without tickets but there's at least a slight chance that the casualty count might not have been quite so high.

Just one other thing - I see that Prestwich mentioned the traffic problems which is a good shout. But let's remember not every Liverpool fan comes from Liverpool - they have an out-of-town support that pretty much rivals the Rags and as such would've been coming from all over the country as well as Liverpool itself. Plus some would've arrived by train of course.

The issue of ticketless fans can of course never be resolved one hundred percent. however, there are two reasons why Taylor didn't believe it was a factor IIRC. The first was that they were able to estimate the number of people in the ground, as well as outside it, with a reasonable degree of accuracy. The total number was not greatly more than the number of tickets sold. There were also Liverpool fans with tickets for the Forest end who were told to go in the Leppings Lane entrance.

However, the total number of people in the ground when the disaster happened was not greater than the total capacity of the Leppings Lane stand. The other pens were virtually empty and could have accommodated all the fans safely, if the police and stewards had blocked off the entrance to Pens 3 & 4, which was part of the normal plan and had been done before. Duckenfield simply didn't think about the consequences of letting all the people through.

As regards traffic problems, you are right and not every Liverpool fan would have been affected. However, the fans were told to be in place by 2:45 and the build up happened at 2:40. It was already well known by the Sheffield Wednesday operational management & the police that the turnstiles couldn't cope with a rush and they failed to exercise proper control on the approaches to the stadium.

As you say, it's impossible to put a number on the ticketless fans, so there must have been a touch of guesswork involved when the inquiry took place - incidentally, I'd be interested to know if the Taylor report actually gives an estimate on the numbers without tickets. Either way, it's obvious who most of the blame lies with and I'm not going down the road of absolving the police - they fooked up royally that day, Duckenfield in particular, and corporate manslaughter charges should've been brought against them. However, I do feel that the fans who turned up without tickets simply added another layer, albeit minor when compared to the mistakes made by the police, to the situation.

 

[mike o]

The scum still sing about this to wind the scouse up and to think they had something similar, banter is all well and good but mocking the dead? Scum

Ive never heard them sing it at matches or in pubs

Lots about heysel but not about h.borough

I cant stand them but if they get each tomorow and play on the aniversary id put moneyon the rags being silent and respecting it.

 

[M18CTID]

The scum still sing about this to wind the scouse up and to think they had something similar, banter is all well and good but mocking the dead? Scum

Ive never heard them sing it at matches or in pubs

Lots about heysel but not about h.borough

I cant stand them but if they get each tomorow and play on the aniversary id put moneyon the rags being silent and respecting it.

Oh, believe me, they do sing about Hillsborough - moreso in recent years when the gloves have really come off between Liverpool and Rag fans. They have incorporated an extra verse into the "In your Liverpool slums" song:

"You used to sing M*nich but not anymore,
'cos 96 scousers lie dead on the floor"

United fans are as bad as the fans of other clubs when it comes to sick songs - no club's fans can take the moral high ground IMO.

 

[Balti]

Bloody awful scenes that day. Just a game of football ffs.

RIP

 

[standing alone]

I honestly can't believe that given these circumstances, the numbers of Liverpool fans pitching up in Sheffield that day without tickets was "insignificant". I know I wasn't there but I would estimate that those without tickets would've probably been in their thousands - anything below that is a naive estimate in my opinion. So for me, if there were thousands of ticketless fans in the vicinity at the point the gates were opened, then that is a significant amount. I'm not saying disaster would've been totally averted if nobody turned up without tickets but there's at least a slight chance that the casualty count might not have been quite so high.

Just one other thing - I see that Prestwich mentioned the traffic problems which is a good shout. But let's remember not every Liverpool fan comes from Liverpool - they have an out-of-town support that pretty much rivals the Rags and as such would've been coming from all over the country as well as Liverpool itself. Plus some would've arrived by train of course.

The issue of ticketless fans can of course never be resolved one hundred percent. however, there are two reasons why Taylor didn't believe it was a factor IIRC. The first was that they were able to estimate the number of people in the ground, as well as outside it, with a reasonable degree of accuracy. The total number was not greatly more than the number of tickets sold. There were also Liverpool fans with tickets for the Forest end who were told to go in the Leppings Lane entrance.

However, the total number of people in the ground when the disaster happened was not greater than the total capacity of the Leppings Lane stand. The other pens were virtually empty and could have accommodated all the fans safely, if the police and stewards had blocked off the entrance to Pens 3 & 4, which was part of the normal plan and had been done before. Duckenfield simply didn't think about the consequences of letting all the people through.

As regards traffic problems, you are right and not every Liverpool fan would have been affected. However, the fans were told to be in place by 2:45 and the build up happened at 2:40. It was already well known by the Sheffield Wednesday operational management & the police that the turnstiles couldn't cope with a rush and they failed to exercise proper control on the approaches to the stadium.

As you say, it's impossible to put a number on the ticketless fans, so there must have been a touch of guesswork involved when the inquiry took place - incidentally, I'd be interested to know if the Taylor report actually gives an estimate on the numbers without tickets. Either way, it's obvious who most of the blame lies with and I'm not going down the road of absolving the police - they fooked up royally that day, Duckenfield in particular, and corporate manslaughter charges should've been brought against them. However, I do feel that the fans who turned up without tickets simply added another layer, albeit minor when compared to the mistakes made by the police, to the situation.

The issue of the ticketless fans can and was resolved but unsurprisingly not well publicised in the press.

The health and safety executive reviewed all the cctv footage available and counted every fan for the taylor report. Every fan who climbed over the wall, came through the gate and through the turnstiles. In addition, swfc had a turnstile count system which counted every fan through the turnstiles. Each turnstile was fitted with an electronic eye and also recorded everyone who climbed over the turnstile. Both show the number who entered = the allocation of tickets given.

In 1981 when spurs fans got crushed at the leppings lane - the police accussed them of bringing ticketless hordes too.

in 1981 the police told swfc that the 10'100 figure was too high but it seems they never reviewed the capacity and at each semi final held there, there was problems with overcrowding.

 

[Disturbance]

The issue of the ticketless fans can and was resolved but unsurprisingly not well publicised in the press.

The health and safety executive reviewed all the cctv footage available and counted every fan for the taylor report. Every fan who climbed over the wall, came through the gate and through the turnstiles. In addition, swfc had a turnstile count system which counted every fan through the turnstiles. Each turnstile was fitted with an electronic eye and also recorded everyone who climbed over the turnstile. Both show the number who entered = the allocation of tickets given.

In 1981 when spurs fans got crushed at the leppings lane - the police accussed them of bringing ticketless hordes too.

in 1981 the police told swfc that the 10'100 figure was too high but it seems they never reviewed the capacity and at each semi final held there, there was problems with overcrowding.

And there we have it, good post based on facts and not speculation.

 

[mackenzie]

The issue of the ticketless fans can and was resolved but unsurprisingly not well publicised in the press.

The health and safety executive reviewed all the cctv footage available and counted every fan for the taylor report. Every fan who climbed over the wall, came through the gate and through the turnstiles. In addition, swfc had a turnstile count system which counted every fan through the turnstiles. Each turnstile was fitted with an electronic eye and also recorded everyone who climbed over the turnstile. Both show the number who entered = the allocation of tickets given.

In 1981 when spurs fans got crushed at the leppings lane - the police accussed them of bringing ticketless hordes too.

in 1981 the police told swfc that the 10'100 figure was too high but it seems they never reviewed the capacity and at each semi final held there, there was problems with overcrowding.

And there we have it, good post based on facts and not speculation.

Yep.

And would the Media have even dared to throw the same accusations at any other group of people after such a catastrophe?

That's the irony for me in a way, that the fans in the Leppings Lane end (and the rest of the stadium) that day actually behaved and acted with a incredible humanity when they were aware what was happening. Probably more so than any other comparative event that wasn't in a football setting.

Football fans have been treated like pariahs for years.