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hillsborough anniversary
- Thread starter wearethesouthstand
- Start date
Newlunar
Well-Known Member
Andy G said:Okay, so who do they want made accountable? I wasn't there but from what I've seen this wasn't people jibbing in one by one over a turnstile. Hundreds of people got in at once didn't they? 'From the visual,audio and scriptual' representations I have had access to I believe the police opened the large gate because people were being crushed outside the ground. So what are they demanding? That the bloke in charge is sent to prison for corporate manslaughter whilst the people who forced the pressure at the back (assuming it is agreed that the physical presence of large numbers of bodies pushing caused the crush at the front) are never held accountable.
I'll let it go if someone comes up with something a little more convincing than you're a twat and a prick.
I will prepare a response to this and your previous posts. Obviously it will take some time as there are so many things to consider and you will not just accept my word for things, so I will also come up with the evidence. I hope it will give you food for thought and better still, rectify the misjudgements you have made. Although I will take references from other documents (of course), I will respond to you personally and directly to the statements you have made, confirming the things you have right and proving where you are wrong. As stated above though, I will need a little time to prepare.
Thank you for your patience.[/quote]
Andy, by pm or in public, I don't mind. And if you do change my mind and I feel that I have got it all wrong, I'll have no problem admitting it.
What I've done is question the general consensus of opinion, I've not intended to be disrepectful to the dead. Probably better done by PM if we're to have and adult debate over it.
I just wonder if people would be as self righteous if it were a coachload of cockney rags.
dannybcity
Well-Known Member
When is the Chumps League draw?
standing alone said:read this today.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009 ... -survivors</a>
shame there's so many trying to promote the myths of the disaster. Truely awful day that could have happend to many other supporters at so many other grounds. 38 spurs fans were nearly killed on the leppings lane due to a crush. They suffered broken ribs, arms, legs but were allowed onto the pitch. South yorkshire police accussed spurs of bringing ticketless hordes. The 87 semi-final held at hillsborough was delayed cos of problems at the leppings lane turnstiles. Disaster averted cos the kick off was delayed. Also problems at the 88 semi final.
As said that terrace was a death trap and badly policed.
rip to all those who died and thoughts to their families and friends.
Had me in tears this piece yesterday
Took me a fair few goes to read it
r.i.p
Newlunar said:Andy G said:Okay, so who do they want made accountable? I wasn't there but from what I've seen this wasn't people jibbing in one by one over a turnstile. Hundreds of people got in at once didn't they? 'From the visual,audio and scriptual' representations I have had access to I believe the police opened the large gate because people were being crushed outside the ground. So what are they demanding? That the bloke in charge is sent to prison for corporate manslaughter whilst the people who forced the pressure at the back (assuming it is agreed that the physical presence of large numbers of bodies pushing caused the crush at the front) are never held accountable.
I'll let it go if someone comes up with something a little more convincing than you're a twat and a prick.
I will prepare a response to this and your previous posts. Obviously it will take some time as there are so many things to consider and you will not just accept my word for things, so I will also come up with the evidence. I hope it will give you food for thought and better still, rectify the misjudgements you have made. Although I will take references from other documents (of course), I will respond to you personally and directly to the statements you have made, confirming the things you have right and proving where you are wrong. As stated above though, I will need a little time to prepare.
Thank you for your patience.
Andy, by pm or in public, I don't mind. And if you do change my mind and I feel that I have got it all wrong, I'll have no problem admitting it.
What I've done is question the general consensus of opinion, I've not intended to be disrepectful to the dead. Probably better done by PM if we're to have and adult debate over it.
I just wonder if people would be as self righteous if it were a coachload of cockney rags.[/quote]
Hi. I will put it on the public fora because there may be other facts that people on here are not aware of. As I said, I understand how you came to believe what you do adn will explain that too, and there are many others who share that opinion of what happened. It is all about education now adn am only too happy to help.
Cheers
Andy
dannybcity
Well-Known Member
standing alone said:<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009 ... -survivors</a>
That's very moving, thanks for posting.
Dubai Blue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 23 Jul 2007
- Messages
- 15,234
Newlunar, I used to have similar opinions to you on this subject until a thread on here last year about boycoting The Sun. Some scousers came on and provided loads of links to factual evidence from inquiries, court cases, documentaries etc. (I think this was the thread Mackenzie was alluding to earlier).
It was a quiet week at work so I sifted through it all and was well and truly converted. Unfortunately, you seem to have fallen for the same Sun-led bollocks that I did. The rubbish that newspaper spouted in the immediate aftermath had a lasting and damaging effect on many people's opinions of what happened that day, as your own views show.
I can't remember the minute details but it sounds like Andy G will compile all the evidence for you. Things I do remember is that Leppings Lane was nowhere near full. It has been proven that the number of ticketless fans was much much smaller than first reported and that those ticketless fans were of no consequence because there was plenty of room in the stand. The hourdes of maruading drunkern yobs was also massively overplayed.
The damage wasn't really done with the opening of the gate, it was the directing of supporters into the central pens. The corridors/staircases leading to the side pens were blocked and the police response once everything had gone wrong was pathetic.
You said you believed the Taylor Report was a whitewash. But it blamed the design of the stadium and the people who were in charge of policing it. Surely a whitewash would have been to just blame the fans, as you have done.
Yes, they were at fault at Heysel and yes, their behaviour in Athens was disgraceful. But there is so much evidence that points to poor policing and stadium design at Hillsborough that your views on the fans causing the disaster are wildly out-of-date and misinformed.
Like I said, I used to feel the same way, so I can guarantee that you will have changed your mind by the time you finish with Andy G's dossier.
It was a quiet week at work so I sifted through it all and was well and truly converted. Unfortunately, you seem to have fallen for the same Sun-led bollocks that I did. The rubbish that newspaper spouted in the immediate aftermath had a lasting and damaging effect on many people's opinions of what happened that day, as your own views show.
I can't remember the minute details but it sounds like Andy G will compile all the evidence for you. Things I do remember is that Leppings Lane was nowhere near full. It has been proven that the number of ticketless fans was much much smaller than first reported and that those ticketless fans were of no consequence because there was plenty of room in the stand. The hourdes of maruading drunkern yobs was also massively overplayed.
The damage wasn't really done with the opening of the gate, it was the directing of supporters into the central pens. The corridors/staircases leading to the side pens were blocked and the police response once everything had gone wrong was pathetic.
You said you believed the Taylor Report was a whitewash. But it blamed the design of the stadium and the people who were in charge of policing it. Surely a whitewash would have been to just blame the fans, as you have done.
Yes, they were at fault at Heysel and yes, their behaviour in Athens was disgraceful. But there is so much evidence that points to poor policing and stadium design at Hillsborough that your views on the fans causing the disaster are wildly out-of-date and misinformed.
Like I said, I used to feel the same way, so I can guarantee that you will have changed your mind by the time you finish with Andy G's dossier.
I seem to remember standing in that end and the level of the bottom of the terrace being considerably below the level of the pitch ? similar to the terracing at Goodison for away fans at that time. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
A truly tragic event, RIP those that perished & thoughts to their families and friends.
A truly tragic event, RIP those that perished & thoughts to their families and friends.
standing alone
Member
- Joined
- 15 Mar 2009
- Messages
- 19
if anyone wants to know what happened at hillsborough and why check out <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hfdinfo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">www.hfdinfo.com</a>
Details the build up to the disaster, the duty of care owed by the authorities, and lists the number of ways the leppings lane was found to be in breach of the 'green guide' and the effect of those breaches.
An eye opener i can tell you.
Details the build up to the disaster, the duty of care owed by the authorities, and lists the number of ways the leppings lane was found to be in breach of the 'green guide' and the effect of those breaches.
An eye opener i can tell you.
M18CTID
Well-Known Member
I'm convinced that the police deservedly need to cop the lion's share of the blame for what happened that day - for me they were a fucking disgrace and their lies and covering up were unforgiveable.
However, while I wouldn't go as far as he did on this thread, I can see some sense in what Bluelunar is saying regarding the ticketless fans. I'm sure Lord Justice Taylor was as thorough as he could be during the inquiry but I honestly feel that the numbers of Liverpool fans without tickets was greater than he deduced. And before anyone starts saying that I've come to this conclusion based on what The Sun or the police said then they couldn't be more wrong. No, to understand where I'm coming from you need to go back to that particular season, and that era to understand the mentality of your average match-going fan of the 80's, not to mention your average match-going Liverpool fan.
It's a universally well known fact that apart from the Rags, Liverpool were the best-supported team of the time. They were also the most successful. As a result, any big game would see them sell out their allocation no problem and it's fair to assume that some fans would travel without tickets in the hope of picking one up on the day. Those of us that were old enough will remember the footage showing the lengths that some Liverpool fans went to (and Everton fans I think as well) to get into Wembley for the 1986 FA Cup final. To say they risked life and limb is not an understatement. What makes me laugh is that at the time their behaviour was almost laughed at and condoned by various pundits, when in truth it should've been condemned out of hand as any kind of "jibbing in" is illegal, but this act of jibbing in was not just illegal, but downright dangerous.
Now let's move forward 3 years to the 1988-89 season. Liverpool had had a poor campaign by their standards up until Christmas - they lost 4-1 to West Ham in the League Cup in December 1988 and by the time they lost 3-1 to the Rags on New Year's Day they found themselves 9 points behind the leaders Arsenal plus they'd played a game more. From then on they embarked on an unbeaten run that still hadn't been broken by April 15th, the day of those fateful events at Hillsborough - not only were they unbeaten since New Year's Day, they'd won their last 11 matches and had swallowed up all of Arsenal's lead to the extent that they were now top on goal difference. Interest was sky high - tickets for the Semi-Final were in all probability snapped up in no time. Plus they were given the smaller end. I honestly can't believe that given these circumstances, the numbers of Liverpool fans pitching up in Sheffield that day without tickets was "insignificant". I know I wasn't there but I would estimate that those without tickets would've probably been in their thousands - anything below that is a naive estimate in my opinion. So for me, if there were thousands of ticketless fans in the vicinity at the point the gates were opened, then that is a significant amount. I'm not saying disaster would've been totally averted if nobody turned up without tickets but there's at least a slight chance that the casualty count might not have been quite so high. And if I was a City fan in those circumstances - turning up at the ground without a ticket - and it had happened to us, then I for one would feel some modicum of responsibility for what happened, regardless of whether Lord Justice Taylor had exonerated me and every other supporter of any blame.
Just one other thing - I see that Prestwich mentioned the traffic problems which is a good shout. But let's remember not every Liverpool fan comes from Liverpool - they have an out-of-town support that pretty much rivals the Rags and as such would've been coming from all over the country as well as Liverpool itself. Plus some would've arrived by train of course.
However, while I wouldn't go as far as he did on this thread, I can see some sense in what Bluelunar is saying regarding the ticketless fans. I'm sure Lord Justice Taylor was as thorough as he could be during the inquiry but I honestly feel that the numbers of Liverpool fans without tickets was greater than he deduced. And before anyone starts saying that I've come to this conclusion based on what The Sun or the police said then they couldn't be more wrong. No, to understand where I'm coming from you need to go back to that particular season, and that era to understand the mentality of your average match-going fan of the 80's, not to mention your average match-going Liverpool fan.
It's a universally well known fact that apart from the Rags, Liverpool were the best-supported team of the time. They were also the most successful. As a result, any big game would see them sell out their allocation no problem and it's fair to assume that some fans would travel without tickets in the hope of picking one up on the day. Those of us that were old enough will remember the footage showing the lengths that some Liverpool fans went to (and Everton fans I think as well) to get into Wembley for the 1986 FA Cup final. To say they risked life and limb is not an understatement. What makes me laugh is that at the time their behaviour was almost laughed at and condoned by various pundits, when in truth it should've been condemned out of hand as any kind of "jibbing in" is illegal, but this act of jibbing in was not just illegal, but downright dangerous.
Now let's move forward 3 years to the 1988-89 season. Liverpool had had a poor campaign by their standards up until Christmas - they lost 4-1 to West Ham in the League Cup in December 1988 and by the time they lost 3-1 to the Rags on New Year's Day they found themselves 9 points behind the leaders Arsenal plus they'd played a game more. From then on they embarked on an unbeaten run that still hadn't been broken by April 15th, the day of those fateful events at Hillsborough - not only were they unbeaten since New Year's Day, they'd won their last 11 matches and had swallowed up all of Arsenal's lead to the extent that they were now top on goal difference. Interest was sky high - tickets for the Semi-Final were in all probability snapped up in no time. Plus they were given the smaller end. I honestly can't believe that given these circumstances, the numbers of Liverpool fans pitching up in Sheffield that day without tickets was "insignificant". I know I wasn't there but I would estimate that those without tickets would've probably been in their thousands - anything below that is a naive estimate in my opinion. So for me, if there were thousands of ticketless fans in the vicinity at the point the gates were opened, then that is a significant amount. I'm not saying disaster would've been totally averted if nobody turned up without tickets but there's at least a slight chance that the casualty count might not have been quite so high. And if I was a City fan in those circumstances - turning up at the ground without a ticket - and it had happened to us, then I for one would feel some modicum of responsibility for what happened, regardless of whether Lord Justice Taylor had exonerated me and every other supporter of any blame.
Just one other thing - I see that Prestwich mentioned the traffic problems which is a good shout. But let's remember not every Liverpool fan comes from Liverpool - they have an out-of-town support that pretty much rivals the Rags and as such would've been coming from all over the country as well as Liverpool itself. Plus some would've arrived by train of course.