Hillsborough verdicts reached

I wasn't born when it happened and haven't followed the case. What did the sun do?
 
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Seems to me like a big crowd turned up for the game, obviously too many (which possibly could be related to a rogue ticketing problem) and as a result the police in authority had to make a decision (which in hindsight was the wrong one) but surely cannot be construed as a purposeful intention to see innocent people killed.

I really don't understand the length of time for resolution. There are so many factors involved, that in hindsight could have been done better, but ultimately, surely the lessons have been learned and changes have been implemented. The whole structure of football grounds have been changed as a result. The blame game can be played ad-hominem, but what exactly is this meant to achieve?
 
steviemc said:
Seems to me like a big crowd turned up for the game, obviously too many (which possibly could be related to a rogue ticketing problem) and as a result the police in authority had to make a decision (which in hindsight was the wrong one) but surely cannot be construed as a purposeful intention to see innocent people killed.

I really don't understand the length of time for resolution. There are so many factors involved, that in hindsight could have been done better, but ultimately, surely the lessons have been learned and changes have been implemented. The whole structure of football grounds have been changed as a result. The blame game can be played ad-hominem, but what exactly is this meant to achieve?
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Difficult to put my finger on it, but despite stumbling through life to reach grumpy middle age I take comfort in the fact that I could never post anything like this.
 
steviemc said:
Seems to me like a big crowd turned up for the game, obviously too many (which possibly could be related to a rogue ticketing problem) and as a result the police in authority had to make a decision (which in hindsight was the wrong one) but surely cannot be construed as a purposeful intention to see innocent people killed.

I really don't understand the length of time for resolution. There are so many factors involved, that in hindsight could have been done better, but ultimately, surely the lessons have been learned and changes have been implemented. The whole structure of football grounds have been changed as a result. The blame game can be played ad-hominem, but what exactly is this meant to achieve?
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Justice and closure for the families.
 
For those still floating the idea that ticketless fans pushing at the back etc caused the disaster......

30 of the 96 came through gate C at 14.52 and were in possession of a ticket
 
steviemc said:
Seems to me like a big crowd turned up for the game, obviously too many (which possibly could be related to a rogue ticketing problem) and as a result the police in authority had to make a decision (which in hindsight was the wrong one) but surely cannot be construed as a purposeful intention to see innocent people killed.

I really don't understand the length of time for resolution. There are so many factors involved, that in hindsight could have been done better, but ultimately, surely the lessons have been learned and changes have been implemented. The whole structure of football grounds have been changed as a result. The blame game can be played ad-hominem, but what exactly is this meant to achieve?
Click to expand...

Pen 3 of the Leppings Lane terrace, where many of those who died were positioned, had 1,296 people in it at the time of the disaster. The safe capacity for that area was 678.

I do not believe that South Yorkshire Police deliberately and knowingly shepherded an additional 618 supporters into this section to orchestrate fatalities. I DO believe however, that they permitted an additional 618 supporters [with or without tickets] to enter this section. The "ticketless" aspect of Hillsborough is irrelevant to the final volume of people who were permitted to enter pens 3 & 4 without any recourse to their physical safety.

Of the 5,689 [revised safe-standing places] available on terraces 1-7 police and stewards managed to miss-place or miss-manage 618 people who should not have been able to enter pen 3......people who should have been physically halted, stopped, re-directed towards the emptier, side-terracing spaces....of which there was still plenty at 2:52pm when South Yorkshire Police opened Gate C.

Fundamentally, it was a series of crowd management errors which led to fatalities.

The crowd was "typical" of the time, given the event.

It was enthusiastic, it was excited and tribal and likely had a fair few nobheads in it....[as did all club's fan-bases]

But they still needed to be marshaled safely, and even the nobheads deserved to make it home to Liverpool ALIVE .....
 
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steviemc said:
Seems to me like a big crowd turned up for the game, obviously too many (which possibly could be related to a rogue ticketing problem) and as a result the police in authority had to make a decision (which in hindsight was the wrong one) but surely cannot be construed as a purposeful intention to see innocent people killed.

I really don't understand the length of time for resolution. There are so many factors involved, that in hindsight could have been done better, but ultimately, surely the lessons have been learned and changes have been implemented. The whole structure of football grounds have been changed as a result. The blame game can be played ad-hominem, but what exactly is this meant to achieve?
Click to expand...
The bold, underlined bit is wrong. There is no evidence that too many people turned up, no ticketing problems or anything else of that ilk. Analysis of the video footage showed that the number in the affected area of the ground was completely consistent with the number of tickets sold in that area. The problem arose because:
  • traffic issues delayed the arrival of many Liverpool fans
  • the police failed to manage the approach to the Leppings Lane turnstiles (as they had the previous season)
  • the turnstiles were inadequate for the numbers of people involved
  • the police failed to manage the crowd inside the stadium meaning that even before the gate was opened, there were too many people in Pen 3
  • having given the order to open the gate, they failed to direct the incoming crowd into the side pens.
Why it's taken so long is that, having given the order to open the gate, the match commander realised he had fucked up and told the FA secretary a lie, namely that fans had rushed the gate and forced it. From that moment there was a cover-up to protect the police and others involved in the tragedy, with the blame being laid at the door of the Liverpool fans. The original inquests were stage-managed with the help of West Midlands police officers in order to produce the "right" result. Successive governments have refused to re-open the matter, despite the Taylor Report highlighting many of the things that are now known. Eventually the government caved in (for which they should receive great credit) and established an independent review body which had full access to all relevant documentation. From that, it was clear that there had been a miscarriage of justice and so the original inquest verdicts were set aside and this new one started.

It's taken so long because of the establishment's insistence on burying the truth.
 
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