Honestly who is/was better?

[franksinatra]

Frank my point is 1 thing , is Messi the best player in the world I agree he is , why cause he can dribble past 10 players and score if any1 wants 2 say its cause of his application work rate , passing r wrong its cause with the ball at his feet he is best player in the world and just 4 what it is worth the best player ever , now do u really think Silva can beat half a team and score in a premier league game ?

MCFC OK

Sorry mate Im completely with you now. I think you view the game similar to me. Its always been the players who can beat players who stand out, the players with that unique ability others dont possess.

Your correct Messi is the best because of that attribute, or should I say thats the key ingredient. For me the best and my favourites are the players who can beat opponents as along with goal scoring those in my eyes are the two most difficult skills

Beating players can be done as well with passing as with dribbling. If it were purely dribbling then arguably CRonaldo surpasses Messi.

Close control and ease on the ball are the attributes which stand out for me. The players who can both dribble and pass their way out of a tight situation are for me the key ingredient. And while Silva doesn't do spectacular long dribbles of the Kinkladze/CRonaldo/Messi type, it is quite clear that he is capable of beating several opponents at once, by either short dribbling or passing or both.

I remember watching a Turkish team play a few years ago, and there was a player called Arda Turan, who immediately stood out in this. You knew that whenever he got the ball in a tight situation, he would either emerge with the ball, or he would get it to one of his team-mates. He's now with Atletico, but it would be nice to see him in the EPL.

IIRC, in the great City side of the late '60s, Colin Bell was not a noted dribbler - that was more the attribute of Mike Summerbee.

-- Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:34 am --

Silva is the better player, but to me as a young lad allowed to go to the football with his mates Kinkladze was god. At the time I had never seen football like it when he got the ball, at least not with my own eyes. My memories of him, because they're amongst my earliest memories of going to games, are some of the very best footballing memories I have.

Sometimes it's not about the effect the player has on a team or on a game but the effect he can have on his fans. And I for one will never forget the way Kinky decorated my football world with his wizardry.
Now I'm older and wiser and now City have got more to play for than not getting relegated I can see the importance and class of someone like Silva and love him too for his unique abilities and the way he decorates the whole footballing world with his magic.

Both City legends - and wonderful footballers - in their own right and own ways but at very different times both for the team and the fans.

There shouldn't be any argument, only appreciation for the happy moments they've both given us.

Ive been writing for 20 pages on this thread discussing the merits of Kinkladze and you have summed it up in a paragraph

No argument at all on the status that Kinkladze seems to hold in the eyes of a great many Man.City fans. He wouldn't otherwise have come 3rd in a City Legends of all time poll.

I still think Messi tops Ronalso, admittedly Ronaldo has more tricks, but Messi's close control and the way he runs at opponents with the ball glued to his foot...it is just a joy to watch.

Yes Silva can beat a man and the occasion fails me, but he did a very similar thing to Kinkladze drawing two defenders in before bursting between both as the two defenders hesitate expecting the other to block his path.

I havent seen the Turkish guy but regularly watch clips of Neymar for his abilities with the ball and as you rightly said you can beat players with passing, Iniesta being a prime example.

Kinkladze came third in a poll of City legends?......That sounds like the making of another thread :-)

 

[MCFCinUSA]

I've enjoyed reading the first half dozen pages of this thread, and there have been some very eloquent arguments and memories shared in it.

To all those knockers (and sadly there appear to be so many of them on this forum at varying times) I truly despair...

The one regret I have being overseas so often - when it comes to City, is never having been able to see Kinky play; in those days live television coverage wasn't what it is now, and I was embroiled in NYC back in those days.

Arguing the toss over David Silva is like comparing apples and oranges - as I believe several people have already advanced.

Kinky was sheer genius and electric to watch - and he literally took teams apart and made other players look very pedestrian. Anyone slamming him or making out he was over-rated, over-hyped, 'average', etc I simply cannot fathom. It's rather like slating a Van Gogh against a Monet if you want to try and line him up against Silva.

We have other talented players in our current squad, and also who have played for us over the years.. so who's really the 'best'???

Probably the only definitive statement that's valid is to say who you enjoyed watching the most, and as others have said, that distinction would probably go to Kinky - who played for us during some very dim days and stuck it out. That is not taking anything away from Silva - or any of our other players past or present, and boy do we have a bunch of 'em! How lucky we are.

There was something extra Kinky had in this department, something that I believe anyone who watched City back then understands.

City might play better organised football now, we might be creaming the best of the Premier League (as opposed to Oxford United or Southampton) but there was artistry at work back then in the Kinky boots, and I think anyone would have a hard time gaining more enjoyment from watching any other City player of the last few decades.. Kinky was the epitome of exciting football; his dial went up to 11.

 

[Frank H]

I, for one, have not been "slamming" Kinkladze. What I dislike is the idea that you can support Kinky by "slamming" Silva ("only scored 2 goals in a season, 1 off his behind" etc.etc., didn't that guy realise that Silva had been playing at a high level at Valencia well before he came to Man.City, and that his main role is not as a striker?).

As for "overrating" - Kinkladze was clearly a very talented player, and one very exciting to watch at his best. Possibly the most exciting player ever to have played for City.

But to equate him with Messi and Maradona - well perhaps that might be slightly overrating him? If not in basic talent, but in achievement?

The apples vs oranges, Van Gogh vs Monet, comparisons are well made, and only reinforce my view that these sorts of threads ("who is/was better") are basically futile - and that there are probably far too many of them.

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
1989–1991 Mretebi Tbilisi 80 (18)
1991–1995 Dinamo Tbilisi 65 (41)
1993 → 1. FC Saarbrücken (loan) 11 (0)
1994 → Boca Juniors (loan) 3 (0)
1995–1998 Manchester City 106 (20)
1998–2000 Ajax 12 (0)
1999–2000 → Derby County (loan) 13 (1)
2000–2003 Derby County 80 (6)
2004–2005 Anorthosis Famagusta 22 (2)
2005–2006 Rubin Kazan 13 (2)
Total 375 (81)

If that isn't the career of a man who is better than Messi and Maradona, then I'd like to know what is

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Colin Bell was a better player than Kinkladze.

 

[franksinatra]

Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
1989–1991 Mretebi Tbilisi 80 (18)
1991–1995 Dinamo Tbilisi 65 (41)
1993 → 1. FC Saarbrücken (loan) 11 (0)
1994 → Boca Juniors (loan) 3 (0)
1995–1998 Manchester City 106 (20)
1998–2000 Ajax 12 (0)
1999–2000 → Derby County (loan) 13 (1)
2000–2003 Derby County 80 (6)
2004–2005 Anorthosis Famagusta 22 (2)
2005–2006 Rubin Kazan 13 (2)
Total 375 (81)

If that isn't the career of a man who is better than Messi and Maradona, then I'd like to know what is

Thanks for the input, those statistics should have made it clear to the zero number of people on this thread who have claimed Kinkladze was as good as Messi or Maradona. The comparsions made to Messi or Maradona relate to the ability he had with a football and not his application or the subsequent career that followed. Many things make a world class footballer, maybe Kinkladze had one of those world class attributes.

 

[given_is_ironman]

I don't get why people say that the team we had when Kinky was around was shit, we had Horlock, Weaver, Rosler, Dickov, Bishop, Edghill etc. What made us a shit team was the amount of managers we went through on our way down to the second division, we had no stability what-so-ever, even when new managers came in they didn't even have the so called "honeymoon period".

 

[franksinatra]

I don't get why people say that the team we had when Kinky was around was shit, we had Horlock, Weaver, Rosler, Dickov, Bishop, Edghill etc. What made us a shit team was the amount of managers we went through on our way down to the second division, we had no stability what-so-ever, even when new managers came in they didn't even have the so called "honeymoon period".

I take your point about the team although Weaver and Bishop werent playing at the time. Even players like Rosler struggled that season scoring 6 goals in 29 matches. A player who previously had averaged one in two in the premier league. The mgmt situation was farcical, it felt like we changed on a weekly basis.

Its exactly the reason the comparison is pointless, when confidence goes, and the club is in turmoil the performance of the players suffer also. Still a nice thread to invoke memories of a City legend.

 

[Frank H]

Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
1989–1991 Mretebi Tbilisi 80 (18)
1991–1995 Dinamo Tbilisi 65 (41)
1993 → 1. FC Saarbrücken (loan) 11 (0)
1994 → Boca Juniors (loan) 3 (0)
1995–1998 Manchester City 106 (20)
1998–2000 Ajax 12 (0)
1999–2000 → Derby County (loan) 13 (1)
2000–2003 Derby County 80 (6)
2004–2005 Anorthosis Famagusta 22 (2)
2005–2006 Rubin Kazan 13 (2)
Total 375 (81)

If that isn't the career of a man who is better than Messi and Maradona, then I'd like to know what is

Thanks for the input, those statistics should have made it clear to the zero number of people on this thread who have claimed Kinkladze was as good as Messi or Maradona. The comparsions made to Messi or Maradona relate to the ability he had with a football and not his application or the subsequent career that followed. Many things make a world class footballer, maybe Kinkladze had one of those world class attributes.

Ol' Blue Eyes, you strike me as being one of the most reasonable, intelligent - and pleasant - posters on the bluemoon forum. If all posters were of your quality, the whole forum would be much pleasanter, more interesting, and more informative.

However while no one has claimed that Kinkladze's record was as good as Messi or Maradona, there certainly have been claims that he could have been as good as them, given the right opportunities. That's of course something which is impossible to prove or disprove.

More to the point of the thread, which is actually comparing Kinky to Silva, there are quite a number of posts comparing Silva very unfavourably with Messi (your friend jack74 for one), in a rather absurd fashion, with the obvious implication that Silva is considerably inferior to Messi - and Kinkladze.

Otherwise why mention Messi in this thread at all?

Anyway, best wishes to yourself. I regret that I cannot say that I am a fan of your namesake, but that's purely a question of personal musical taste!

 

[franksinatra]

Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
1989–1991 Mretebi Tbilisi 80 (18)
1991–1995 Dinamo Tbilisi 65 (41)
1993 → 1. FC Saarbrücken (loan) 11 (0)
1994 → Boca Juniors (loan) 3 (0)
1995–1998 Manchester City 106 (20)
1998–2000 Ajax 12 (0)
1999–2000 → Derby County (loan) 13 (1)
2000–2003 Derby County 80 (6)
2004–2005 Anorthosis Famagusta 22 (2)
2005–2006 Rubin Kazan 13 (2)
Total 375 (81)

If that isn't the career of a man who is better than Messi and Maradona, then I'd like to know what is

Thanks for the input, those statistics should have made it clear to the zero number of people on this thread who have claimed Kinkladze was as good as Messi or Maradona. The comparsions made to Messi or Maradona relate to the ability he had with a football and not his application or the subsequent career that followed. Many things make a world class footballer, maybe Kinkladze had one of those world class attributes.

Ol' Blue Eyes, you strike me as being one of the most reasonable, intelligent - and pleasant - posters on the bluemoon forum. If all posters were of your quality, the whole forum would be much pleasanter, more interesting, and more informative.

However while no one has claimed that Kinkladze's record was as good as Messi or Maradona, there certainly have been claims that he could have been as good as them, given the right opportunities. That's of course something which is impossible to prove or disprove.

More to the point of the thread, which is actually comparing Kinky to Silva, there are quite a number of posts comparing Silva very unfavourably with Messi (your friend jack74 for one), in a rather absurd fashion, with the obvious implication that Silva is considerably inferior to Messi - and Kinkladze.

Otherwise why mention Messi in this thread at all?

Anyway, best wishes to yourself. I regret that I cannot say that I am a fan of your namesake, but that's purely a question of personal musical taste!

Frank,

Thanks for the comments, of course you are correct it is impossible to say whether Kinkladze could ever be as good as Messi, many factors influence that including nationality, coaching, personality etc etc.

For example it is no coincidence that Spain seem to be producing a conveyor belt of technically gifted footballers sich as Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Fabregas, martinez all comfortable on the ball, while we produce in isolation players such as Jack Wilshere.

It has been well documented as one poster mentioned that Kinkladze was a tortured soul, he missed his homeland, was wracked with self doubt and wrongly felt a sense of deep loyalty to City which you could argue stooped the development of his career at a crucial time.

Kinkladze never had the benefit of the football schooling for example Silva may have received and was flown all across the world from one club to another to protect him from the war in Georgia.

That is the enigma that is Kinkladze and why the comparison with the likes of Messi are well founded. Nobody would claim he ever played at their level and had all the attributes Messi , but he had the raw materials, maybe just without the coaching, confidence and structured lifestyle to flourish at the highest level.

It would be interesting to see where Messi would be now without the guiding hand of Barcelona from a young age and the schooling at their academy.

Messi benefitted from the coaching in Barcelona incorporating his god given talent into the structure of the team, learning the benefits of ball retention and when to dribble and when to pass. Maybe Kinkladze didnt learn this and so the selfish tag gets mooted and playing for himself gets thrown at him.

Like you say we cant compare, however if all things were equal and Kinkladze had spent his formative years at say Barcelona, with Kinkladzes unique talent the difference I expect would be much smaller a point I think many posters have alluded to. He had the most unique of ability comparable with any, but without the other ingredients which makes the worlds best players.