How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

BrianW said:
My view of the shitshow can be summarised by a song:
Working My Way Back to You.

At some point, we are going to have to swallow crow and admit we were wrong. This is never easy for a proud people. But the alternative is to gradually (or perhaps swiftly) turn into a capitalist version of North Korea.

Pragmatism is in short supply. That's why we are fucked. In realpolitik, you can't afford principles. And especially not old, outdated dusty ones from 1952.
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Well, there are plenty 'Spinners' in UK politics and it's quite an apt song since one line goes: "Thought I could have my cake and eat it too, but how I cried over losin' you'."

Might not be quite at the crying state, yet...

I'm more inclined to see the UK in the mold of Cuba. A large island floating off the coast of an economic superpower that, for a host of historical reasons, still finds itself at odds with its neighbor and which at so many points might even have become a State.
 
Gabriel said:
Well, there are plenty 'Spinners' in UK politics and it's quite an apt song since one line goes: "Thought I could have my cake and eat it too, but how I cried over losin' you'."

Might not be quite at the crying state, yet...

I'm more inclined to see the UK in the mold of Cuba. A large island floating off the coast of an economic superpower that, for a host of historical reasons, still finds itself at odds with its neighbor and which at so many points might even have become a State.
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A major problem, among both Brexit Tories and the far-Left is they want the world to be as they would like it to be, and refuse to deal with it as it is. That attitude essentially cuts your legs off. The equivalent is being the one kid in the primary school class who doesn't want to play football. It gets you nowhere, it just means your football skills don't develop. We all (as individuals or nations) have to make concessions to reality - or exist as hermits.
 
Vic said:
Even if we simply had to leave, we didn't have to leave like this. We could have left as Leave promised, and still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

Once they started the hard Brexit nonsense, all democratic bets were off for respecting the result.

Our daft system then produced a GE where most people voted for parties at least wanting to offer a second chance to see sense, and an 80 seat majority for a party lying about getting Brexit done.

That's my perspective.

Still, low growth and more poverty is probably good for the environment.
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I completely agree that our electoral system is political cancer which offends representative democracy.
 
BobKowalski said:
Or maybe not. Mind you, will go nicely with the raw sewage in the rivers.

‘UK government to scrap European law protecting special habitats’

www.theguardian.com

UK government to scrap European law protecting special habitats

Environment secretary George Eustice wants to amend Habitats Directive, which protects Natura 2000 sites
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Green crap, burn it.

We know that Mogg thinks there is nothing wrong with setting an end date when all European laws automatically lapse, which inevitably will lead to a load of things not getting fixed, or brinkmanship of awful options as the deadline approaches.

He can call it an oven-ready deal and then blame those voting the awful options down for the outcome. It's just vandalism for profit.
 
BrianW said:
A major problem, among both Brexit Tories and the far-Left is they want the world to be as they would like it to be, and refuse to deal with it as it is. That attitude essentially cuts your legs off. The equivalent is being the one kid in the primary school class who doesn't want to play football. It gets you nowhere, it just means your football skills don't develop. We all (as individuals or nations) have to make concessions to reality - or exist as hermits.
Click to expand...
Which is all well and good, but as a person who since I became politically aware has railed against Capitalism and witnessed in my lifetime the damage to society caused by Neo-Liberalism are you really imitating that I should no longer hold my beliefs and just accept that Capitalism and its extreme form in Neo Liberalism are here to stay.

I want a better world for everyone, I want a world that is fair and equitable, a world where people matter more than profit, if that flame extinguishes then there will never be an alternative to the ravages which we witness whether we are in the EU or not.

The EU is primarily a Capitalist club, it is a Corporate safe haven, yes there are a few benefits, they throw the odd sop to the working class like the working time directive and there is freedom of movement. I am not one of those who sees it as a continuation of Nazi Germany or any other of the idiotic asides that get thrown about by the more vociferous RW Brexit nutjobs, I am simply a Socialist and that i am afraid is incompatible with the EU's raison d'etre of being for the owners of Capital.
 
Rascal said:
Which is all well and good, but as a person who since I became politically aware has railed against Capitalism and witnessed in my lifetime the damage to society caused by Neo-Liberalism are you really imitating that I should no longer hold my beliefs and just accept that Capitalism and its extreme form in Neo Liberalism are here to stay.

I want a better world for everyone, I want a world that is fair and equitable, a world where people matter more than profit, if that flame extinguishes then there will never be an alternative to the ravages which we witness whether we are in the EU or not.

The EU is primarily a Capitalist club, it is a Corporate safe haven, yes there are a few benefits, they throw the odd sop to the working class like the working time directive and there is freedom of movement. I am not one of those who sees it as a continuation of Nazi Germany or any other of the idiotic asides that get thrown about by the more vociferous RW Brexit nutjobs, I am simply a Socialist and that i am afraid is incompatible with the EU's raison d'etre of being for the owners of Capital.
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You can believe whatever you want to believe. Why, there are even people who think Libertarianism is a practical proposition, and compared to them you are incredibly grounded and down-to-earth.

I believe in realpolitik. Literally in acceptingly the world as it is and getting the best deal possible. That is the EU, for us. What we have done is put up trading barriers to our nearest and most important trading partners. That has already cut 4% off GDP. It will cut another 4% off next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. This is not an abstract thing that doesn't matter. It means a smaller cake to share out. Think the rich will accept a smaller share, even in proportion? No chance! If anything, they will want more. So the people you care most about lose out.

We are not getting socialism any time soon. There is no appetite for it. But even if we could turn public opinion around to, say, 60% socialist, we know from experience that 'socialism in one country' does not work.

I would settle for being like Denmark. That's as much socialism as I want. And Denmark is in the EU which proves such a country can exist therein.
 
BrianW said:
You can believe whatever you want to believe. Why, there are even people who think Libertarianism is a practical proposition, and compared to them you are incredibly grounded and down-to-earth.

I believe in realpolitik. Literally in acceptingly the world as it is and getting the best deal possible. That is the EU, for us. What we have done is put up trading barriers to our nearest and most important trading partners. That has already cut 4% off GDP. It will cut another 4% off next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. This is not an abstract thing that doesn't matter. It means a smaller cake to share out. Think the rich will accept a smaller share, even in proportion? No chance! If anything, they will want more. So the people you care most about lose out.

We are not getting socialism any time soon. There is no appetite for it. But even if we could turn public opinion around to, say, 60% socialist, we know from experience that 'socialism in one country' does not work.

I would settle for being like Denmark. That's as much socialism as I want. And Denmark is in the EU which proves such a country can exist therein.
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That is a powerful argument, it is also very difficult to refute. I am though an idealogue for my sins and my beliefs sustain me.

What is pleasing is across parts of Europe the RW is in decline and the left is rising, Portugal even has Communists as part of the Government, Spain is turning leftwards, Germany too only slightly, the Scandi's remain bastions of Social Democracy. I could live with Social Democracy rather than Conservatism , but prefer Democratic Socialism to either. Maybe just maybe, the UK leaving has woken up the other countries in the EU and they are starting to examine the role Capitalism plays in it. One can hope.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Sorry to ask and I know it's a big no no but how old are you halfmoist.? Not having a go at all but just trying to understand your pov.
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Not sure it will help you understand my position but I am 64.
In my early 30’s I had a very successful career but gave it up to go in to business with others.
Nearly lost everything, close to bankruptcy, and I vowed never to rely on anyone else ever again, whether it be politicians friends, associates or business partners.
I spurned many opportunities including one with hindsight would have made me a lot of money as the company was taken over a couple of years later for £30 million but I now stand by my own decisions and don’t blame anyone else if it all goes tits up.
Some on here say I have a selfish, greedy , only care about myself attitude , but I would guess it’s those that have never taken risks, would never put their house and assets on the line to protect others jobs at the time, that take this stance.
 
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