How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Gabriel]

The majority of Scots want to be in Europe so his message does not play well here. Basically he is encouraging Scottish labour voters to vote SNP.
I think we agree that if he continues with this strategy we will see another Tory government. Nobody said it would be easy but if he were more honest around Europe I think he would have a better chance.

I agree with the first part but am less convinced by the second, at least not at the moment. Such a change of mood and message would go down well with many on here, certainly, but whether it would be as convincing with people who voted Tory in Labour’s key battlegrounds, I’m less sure. The circumstances may yet change to allow Labour to alter its message, but I’ve always said that the next General Election will have three (four if we include Northern Ireland) distinct elections, and with such a majority and boundary changes in its favour, the Conservatives really ought not to be losing it. Theefore, it will take Labour, the Liberal Democrats, and SNP winning their respective elections and depriving the Conservatives of an overall majority if there is to be a change of government.

 

[M18CTID]

Bravo to you mate, seriously.

Takes a big character to stand up publicly and own it.

If more people had the courage to do that, the country would be in a lot better place.

I think you’ll be surprised how many of us feel the same way. 60+% saying it was a mistake proves that and I know quite a few people who would vote differently if there was another referendum tomorrow. Like @blueinsa I’m happy to hold my hands up on here and own it.

Trouble is, no amount of us standing up and saying this is going to change things because once the vote was cast that’s where public input into the issue effectively ended and it was then up to the politicians to decide what type of Brexit we got. Well, I suppose you could argue that voting Conservative at the last election was also a vote for Johnson’s shitty “oven ready” Brexit deal, and what muddies the waters is that it wasn’t only millions of Leavers who voted Conservative in 2019, but millions of Remainers too. Thankfully, on a personal note I don’t have to stand up and own that one as well because I didn’t vote for them ;)

 

[Gabriel]

I fear the hatred of fellow countrymen will reach a zenith in some quarters too. I frequently said that once we voted to leave, we had to go, as to fail to do so would be so incredibly decisive for us as a nation, but the way this is unraveling will prove to be almost as polarising, sadly.

The negative forces this utterly reckless referendum have unleashed are truly a sight to behold and will, quite possibly, be the undoing of this country as a leading nation.

The seams of the United Kingdom have been slowly coming apart for some time, but it’s difficult to see how the divisions in England can be healed. Brexit was fuelled by stoking xenophobia at a time when public services and housing were creaking after decades of underinvestment, yet the irony of that is that those doing the stoking are promising a world of greater internationalisation. That means there is going to be further immigration into the U.K. but now from ‘non-white countries‘ whose cultures are even more distinct than those of say Poland, Lithuania, or Romania. Yet these new immigrants will also need access to the public services and housing, which still haven’t been improved and which are now, post-pandemic, even more chronically underfunded. In the coming years, I fear the divisions will only become deeper and the xenophobia will only become uglier.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I agree with the first part but am less convinced by the second, at least not at the moment. Such a change of mood and message would go down well with many on here, certainly, but whether it would be as convincing with people who voted Tory in Labour’s key battlegrounds, I’m less sure. The circumstances may yet change to allow Labour to alter its message, but I’ve always said that the next General Election will have three (four if we include Northern Ireland) distinct elections, and with such a majority and boundary changes in its favour, the Conservatives really ought not to be losing it. Theefore, it will take Labour, the Liberal Democrats, and SNP winning their respective elections and depriving the Conservatives of an overall majority if there is to be a change of government.

You may well be right mate. I just have this old fashioned ideal that I like politicians to be honest about what they stand for and what they will do if you vote for them, that they act in the best interest of the country rather than their party. Naive I know.

At a time when the country needs the best possible leadership from its politicians we have the very worst from the Tory party and very ordinary from Labour.

 

[blueinsa]

I think you’ll be surprised how many of us feel the same way. 60+% saying it was a mistake proves that and I know quite a few people who would vote differently if there was another referendum tomorrow. Like @blueinsa I’m happy to hold my hands up on here and own it.

Trouble is, no amount of us standing up and saying this is going to change things because once the vote was cast that’s where public input into the issue effectively ended and it was then up to the politicians to decide what type of Brexit we got. Well, I suppose you could argue that voting Conservative at the last election was also a vote for Johnson’s shitty “oven ready” Brexit deal, and what muddies the waters is that it wasn’t only millions of Leavers who voted Conservative in 2019, but millions of Remainers too. Thankfully, on a personal note I don’t have to stand up and own that one as well because I didn’t vote for them ;)

Sadly I did such was my insistence that the vote to leave be acted upon.

An absolute fucking disaster in both votes and one I have certainly learned from.

As you say though, it’s politicians who must carry the can for this absolute shit show and sadly it seems even Labour under Starmer show no sign of trying to reverse the damage done which I find utterly perplexing until I realise that like all other parties and leaders, the billionaire bosses won’t allow it.

 

[Gabriel]

You may well be right mate. I just have this old fashioned ideal that I like politicians to be honest about what they stand for and what they will do if you vote for them, that they act in the best interest of the country rather than their party. Naive I know.

At a time when the country needs the best possible leadership from its politicians we have the very worst from the Tory party and very ordinary from Labour.

Can we attribute this sentiment to the recent heat? ;-)

The Conservatives are in the apparently comfortable position of being able to preach the same message up and down the breadth of the country, though they know that message falls largely on deaf ears in Scotland. Labour have slowly realised that they are no longer a national party in the same sense and must therefore tailor their message accordingly. The Labour leadership know that ‘ordinary’ might be just enough to win in the north and London even if that message leaves some shifting uncomfortably in their pews.

Its leadership also know how toxic Brexit is as an issue and how people just don’t want to talk about it. The irony of the fact that not talking about it candidly in the first place put the country in this position is not lost on me, but I can understand Labour’s reluctance to take a more definitive stance.

If we step back for a moment and consider what has happened since 2019, it truly is staggering. Most political commentators automatically accepted Johnson’s 2019 victory as giving him a two-term majority, maybe even three. Indeed, Johnson inspired but has now himself expired. Those same commentators, however, can already envisage the next General Election returning a different government. All of that has been achieved with the opposition parties basically doing nothing but being ordinary, so we can start to appreciate why Labour won’t want to change the message on Europe anytime soon.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Can we attribute this sentiment to the recent heat? ;-)

The Conservatives are in the apparently comfortable position of being able to preach the same message up and down the breadth of the country, though they know that message falls largely on deaf ears in Scotland. Labour have slowly realised that they are no longer a national party in the same sense and must therefore tailor their message accordingly. The Labour leadership know that ‘ordinary’ might be just enough to win in the north and London even if that message leaves some shifting uncomfortably in their pews.

Its leadership also know how toxic Brexit is as an issue and how people just don’t want to talk about it. The irony of the fact that not talking about it candidly in the first place put the country in this position is not lost on me, but I can understand Labour’s reluctance to take a more definitive stance.

If we step back for a moment and consider what has happened since 2019, it truly is staggering. Most political commentators automatically accepted Johnson’s 2019 victory as giving him a two-term majority, maybe even three. Indeed, Johnson inspired but has now himself expired. Those same commentators, however, can already envisage the next General Election returning a different government. All of that has been achieved with the opposition parties basically doing nothing but being ordinary, so we can start to appreciate why Labour won’t want to change the message on Europe anytime soon.

Fast forward that Keith gets elected on a 'make Brexit work' mandate. Just how does he do that without compromising some of the promises he is making just now. Then the usual suspects in the media will have him for toast. The country won't heal until it confronts the damage done to itself.

 

[Gabriel]

Fast forward that Keith gets elected on a 'make Brexit work' mandate. Just how does he do that without compromising some of the promises he is making just now. Then the usual suspects in the media will have him for toast. The country won't heal until it confronts the damage done to itself.

If Starmer is in Downing Street, then he will be there because Davey and Sturgeon (perhaps) are keeping him there, which means compromises will have been made, and if the last three years have taught us anything, then it is that manifesto promises are a movable feast. Time is a great healer but the scars from Brexit won’t ever go away.

 

[Saddleworth2]

If Starmer is in Downing Street, then he will be there because Davey and Sturgeon (perhaps) are keeping him there, which means compromises will have been made, and if the last three years have taught us anything, then it is that manifesto promises are a movable feast. Time is a great healer but the scars from Brexit won’t ever go away.

They will mate but it might take decades.
Sturgeons support for Keith will be dependent on the tone of negotiations to realise an independent Scotland.

 

[Mike D]

I fear the hatred of fellow countrymen will reach a zenith in some quarters too. I frequently said that once we voted to leave, we had to go, as to fail to do so would be so incredibly decisive for us as a nation, but the way this is unraveling will prove to be almost as polarising, sadly.

The negative forces this utterly reckless referendum have unleashed are truly a sight to behold and will, quite possibly, be the undoing of this country as a leading nation.

We are following in the footsteps of our American cousins in this vein. The only difference being we are just a little island off Europe with not much to offer, not the number 1 economic powerhouse. Its sad to watch this unravel in front of our eyes, but that's what they voted for.