How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

The fact that you have to queue a little longer at passport control is a small thing.

The fact that as a UK citizen, the laws that affect you are now made by people who are accountable to you ar a General Election is a big thing (it's called democracy and the same logic explains why it was important that women are now allowed to vote).



Gonna blow your mind now.......... there were European Elections - we regularly voted for and elected MEP's to the European Parliament - fuck it was a place even Farage could get elected to. They run a whole continent with 751 MEP's btw - somehow we need 650 to run our tiny island.

So - we elected MEP's - they then get a vote on the nominee's of the President of the European Commission who are proposed by the European Council - so we via our elected representatives confirm the President. Then EVERY member state selects their nomination for an EU commissioner and the Parliament votes and only a Commissioner that gets a majority vote from the Parliament ( who's members we elect ) gets appointed.

You will note how often the words elect and vote come into the process. They were never unelected - you just fell for the bullshit lies.

Can you tell me the 3 laws from the EU enacted in the UK do you find where the most egregious?
 
You do know that you are actually Dougal not Ted in this situation?

And you're not?

That's utterly ludicrous.

You're such a sanctimonious so and so.

I want to rejoin the EU, but when we do, as we surely will, we'll rejoin an organisation that will once again cement a particular form of corporate capitalism in to the very fabric of the UK and that'll be that. Our ability to legislate in whole areas of policy will again be subsumed into whatever mush the EU collective cobble together, that's why Rees Mogg and Mick Lynch are both Brexiteers.

The Brexit lies that led us here are still lies, but there is a case for Brexit, it's just that in 2016 it was never made, it was made in 1975 by the likes of Peter Shore as this 60 second clip shows....



And if you aren't completely closed to the counter argument here is his full speech.



GortonBlue62 has a point, it is a tragedy it was never made by the fat oaf and the execrable Gove, but it is a valid argument nonetheless and should be treated with respect and debated.

It comes as no surprise to anyone that you do neither.
 
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Inside or outside the EU we are locked into corporate capitalism.

We are also effectively locked into the Western European economy by an inconvenient reality called 'geography'. It's just that outside the EU we (or rather our rulers) have far less say.

If the socialist revolution is coming it can come in the EU just as well as in the UK. (Not that I think it is, BTW.)

Our Parliament can theoretically legislate anything but the truth is it is heavily, heavily restrained by vested interests and economic reality. (Truss was a working demonstration of the latter.) As an economically backward island with few natural resources, which is also effectively Billy No Mates and cannot even feed itself, the reality is that we have very few choices.
 
You do know that you are actually Dougal not Ted in this situation?
Surprise surprise. Still no answer, after seven long years to think of something, to the point about strengthening our democracy.

At least you didn't call me a zenophobic little Englander harking after the halcyon days of Empire. So we'll done.
 
Very true.

What pisses people off though,is extra queuing is one of many "small things",
or inconveniences,that they now have to put up with.

Most of which we were told wouldn't happen.
Both sides lied, both sides exaggerated the benefits of voting their way, both sides misrepresented the other side's position.

Normal political discourse.

The substantial point about improving our democracy still stands. House of Lords reform (by which I mean abolition) next.
 
Unfortunately, and this may blow your mind, there are many things that affect us that are beyond the control of our laws (it's called reality and explains why Brexit turned out to be a steaming turd).
It hasn't turned out to be a steaming turd. The big impacts to the British economy have been the global pandemic and Russia invading Ukraine. Any negative economic effects of Brexit have been dwarfed by these two huge events.

The economists who wrongly predicted economic meltdown if we didn't join the Euro are the same economists who got it wrong again about EU membership.
 
And you're not?

That's utterly ludicrous.

You're such a sanctimonious so and so.

I want to rejoin the EU, but when we do, as we surely will, we'll rejoin an organisation that will once again cement a particular form of corporate capitalism in to the very fabric of the UK and that'll be that. Our ability to legislate in whole areas of policy will again be subsumed into whatever mush the EU collective cobble together, that's why Rees Mogg and Mick Lynch are both Brexiteers.

The Brexit lies that led us here are still lies, but there is a case for Brexit, it's just that in 2016 it was never made, it was made in 1975 by the likes of Peter Shore as this 60 second clip shows....



And if you aren't completely closed to the counter argument here is his full speech.



GortonBlue62 has a point, it is a tragedy it was never made by the fat oaf and the execrable Gove, but it is a valid argument nonetheless and should be treated with respect and debated.

It comes as no surprise to anyone that you do neither.


The trouble with Lexit is that no one who advocated ever had the power to implement it.

So it was always a daft idea.

We all understand sovereignty. The fact that we were able to leave without asking permission proves that we always had it.

But sovereignty isn't unlimited in the real world, Tony Benn and Enoch Powell agreed on this very simple point the first time there was a referendum on this issue.

Absolute sovereignty is no more a real concept than absolute self sufficiency. Even if you live off of the land, you'll need someone to make your tools, dig up the metal for it or give you the eggs that hatch into your chickens etc.

If you think you will win the battle against capitalism in your lifetime you must be smoking something strong.
 
Gonna blow your mind now.......... there were European Elections - we regularly voted for and elected MEP's to the European Parliament - fuck it was a place even Farage could get elected to. They run a whole continent with 751 MEP's btw - somehow we need 650 to run our tiny island.

So - we elected MEP's - they then get a vote on the nominee's of the President of the European Commission who are proposed by the European Council - so we via our elected representatives confirm the President. Then EVERY member state selects their nomination for an EU commissioner and the Parliament votes and only a Commissioner that gets a majority vote from the Parliament ( who's members we elect ) gets appointed.

You will note how often the words elect and vote come into the process. They were never unelected - you just fell for the bullshit lies.

Can you tell me the 3 laws from the EU enacted in the UK do you find where the most egregious?
EU law is made by the Commision. The Parliament and the Council of Ministers can modify or even reject the laws that emanate from the Commission but they rarely do.

The European Parliament is a Parliament in name only. Its members are not legislators.

The Commission meets in secret and all it's machinations are confidential. Commissioners are appointed not elected, they are therefore unaccountable.

The House of Commons publicly tore itself to shreds in the weeks leading up to the 2019 election. The British electorate delivered its judgement in the election. Democracy in action.

Two examples of UK commissioners. Neil Kinnock lost the 1992 election after 13 years of Conservative government; the British electorate decided they didn't want him anywhere near the levers of power. He was then appointed to the EU Commission where he made laws affecting UK citizens. When he was finished in Brussels he was appointed to the House of Lords which must surely be every Democrats next target. Peter Mandelson was forced to resign from Blair's government; basically here's a guy who isn't fit to hold high office. Same career path as Kinnock, EU Commission and then the House of Lords.

Both Kinnock and Mandelson fail Tony Benn's test - when you meet someone in a position of power ask them two questions - How did you get there? and How xan we get rid of you? MPs are elected and general elections and sometimes public opinion can remove them.

If as a UK citizen you fell foul of EU law there would have been no point going to your MEP to complain because he or she didn't make the law. How about going to the relevant Commissioner? That's no good because commissioners are appointed not elected they don't need your vote so they are accountable to no one.

Compare that to UK law. If a law is unfair, and they often are as it's difficult to frame good legislation, you go to your MP's constituency surgery and raise the issue. If you have a case the issue can be raised in Parliament and the law can be changed. MPs do this not because they are better people than MEPs but because they are accountable to the people they serve. Again it's called democracy.

On your narrow point asking for examples of EU laws I object to, I'd say it's irrelevant. Even if I agreed with everything the EU Commission did the substantial point is that the people who make the laws that affect us have to be directly accountable to us. (If you must have an example, I'd cite the Common Agricultural.Policy which inflates food prices for millions of the poorest people in the European Union and stops poor farmers in Africa and elsewhere selling into the EU. At no point were alternatives debated or tested in an election.).
 
Are you the pound shop Enoch Powell? Because you ought to do a speech called "rivers of shit".

How accountable have the Tory bastards been on that issue?
 

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