How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

The trouble with Lexit is that no one who advocated ever had the power to implement it.

So it was always a daft idea.

We all understand sovereignty. The fact that we were able to leave without asking permission proves that we always had it.

But sovereignty isn't unlimited in the real world, Tony Benn and Enoch Powell agreed on this very simple point the first time there was a referendum on this issue.

Absolute sovereignty is no more a real concept than absolute self sufficiency. Even if you live off of the land, you'll need someone to make your tools, dig up the metal for it or give you the eggs that hatch into your chickens etc.

If you think you will win the battle against capitalism in your lifetime you must be smoking something strong.
I voted to leave the EU so that we could engage more fully with the wider world.

Sovereignty in your definition seems to be about pulling up the drawbridge and not engaging with the rest of the world.

Sovereignty in my definition is about having the ability to set your own path. It's about engaging with the wider world, both culturally and economically. It's about breaking down trade barriers and embracing capitalism and globalisation.

Societies that close themselves off are doomed to fail. The EU with it's protectionist economic policies and its excessive application of the precautionary principle, to name but two of its many failings, is the best example of a failing 'state'.

The UK's success in the years ahead will depend on which politicians can take the opportunities Brexit offers. Unfortunately the current crop seem to be fucking useless so I'm not too optimistic. But Brexit is an opportunity and we're never rejoining the EU so maybe remoaners need to accept they lost and just get on with it?
 
If you think you will win the battle against capitalism in your lifetime you must be smoking something strong.
I'll just leave this here...
I want to rejoin the EU, but when we do, as we surely will, we'll rejoin an organisation that will once again cement a particular form of corporate capitalism in to the very fabric of the UK
 
Both right and left-wing critics of the EU make the classic error of imagining the world as they would like it to be and not as it is.

In reality, the business of politics ought to be to get the best possible deal for the country and its people. It's no use dreaming of Camelot, we can never have it. Engaging with the wider world is actually better done via the medium of the EU as the sad reality is that most of the wider world hates the UK's guts. The idea that they are all falling over themselves to give us advantageous trade deals is laughable and demonstrably wrong. New Zealand has given the EU a better trade deal than it has us for the simple reason that the EU is a much more attractive trade partner.

Concepts like 'sovereignty' are just verbiage. The equivalent of medieval scholars debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. I don't give a rap for it.
 
EU law is made by the Commision. The Parliament and the Council of Ministers can modify or even reject the laws that emanate from the Commission but they rarely do.

The European Parliament is a Parliament in name only. Its members are not legislators.

The Commission meets in secret and all it's machinations are confidential. Commissioners are appointed not elected, they are therefore unaccountable.

The House of Commons publicly tore itself to shreds in the weeks leading up to the 2019 election. The British electorate delivered its judgement in the election. Democracy in action.

Two examples of UK commissioners. Neil Kinnock lost the 1992 election after 13 years of Conservative government; the British electorate decided they didn't want him anywhere near the levers of power. He was then appointed to the EU Commission where he made laws affecting UK citizens. When he was finished in Brussels he was appointed to the House of Lords which must surely be every Democrats next target. Peter Mandelson was forced to resign from Blair's government; basically here's a guy who isn't fit to hold high office. Same career path as Kinnock, EU Commission and then the House of Lords.

Both Kinnock and Mandelson fail Tony Benn's test - when you meet someone in a position of power ask them two questions - How did you get there? and How xan we get rid of you? MPs are elected and general elections and sometimes public opinion can remove them.

If as a UK citizen you fell foul of EU law there would have been no point going to your MEP to complain because he or she didn't make the law. How about going to the relevant Commissioner? That's no good because commissioners are appointed not elected they don't need your vote so they are accountable to no one.

Compare that to UK law. If a law is unfair, and they often are as it's difficult to frame good legislation, you go to your MP's constituency surgery and raise the issue. If you have a case the issue can be raised in Parliament and the law can be changed. MPs do this not because they are better people than MEPs but because they are accountable to the people they serve. Again it's called democracy.

On your narrow point asking for examples of EU laws I object to, I'd say it's irrelevant. Even if I agreed with everything the EU Commission did the substantial point is that the people who make the laws that affect us have to be directly accountable to us. (If you must have an example, I'd cite the Common Agricultural.Policy which inflates food prices for millions of the poorest people in the European Union and stops poor farmers in Africa and elsewhere selling into the EU. At no point were alternatives debated or tested in an election.).

well the fact that they occasionally do modify and reject laws from the Commission rather makes my point. As I said The Commissioners are appointed but have to be ratified by a majority of MEP's ( you know the ones who are elected in the EU elections ).

The Commission is so secret they publish quarterly reports on what they have been dealing with. Proper espionage/conspiracy theory.

Dragging dubious personal dislikes of politicians in and how they progressed through legislatures is pointless. We can trade examples that prove nothing other than politicians do politics.

Its funny that coz when we were in the EU MEP's did assist constituents - even the fuckwit Dorries could see that where we are now leaves us outside the EU looking in following rules with no influence on them.

As ever Brexiteers can never really be specific on EU laws coz they followed the rants of Farage without asking what laws. Interesting you come down on CAP - because famously now we are no longer in it we are giving away our sheep farming and grain farming a veterinary control at the borders in exchange for the cheapest - sorry dearest - food in Europe - Jesus even Lidl trainers are back in store costing £15 when they used to be a tenner - you will need to take that up with Reet-Smug though coz he lied to you about cheap trainers too.

 
I'll just leave this here...

Which is no worse than current form of capitalism we have in the UK.

If anything it's actually preferable to the low wage, low investment, low growth model we have currently.

The Lexit argument was always daft because they were willing to hand over the keys to people who were even more corrupt, less accountable and less interested in public service than the eurocrats.
 
On your narrow point asking for examples of EU laws I object to, I'd say it's irrelevant. Even if I agreed with everything the EU Commission did the substantial point is that the people who make the laws that affect us have to be directly accountable to us. (If you must have an example, I'd cite the Common Agricultural.Policy which inflates food prices for millions of the poorest people in the European Union and stops poor farmers in Africa and elsewhere selling into the EU. At no point were alternatives debated or tested in an election.).

Why would it be a good idea to become more reliant on a region that experiences political instability, increasingly frequent harsh droughts and food insecurity of their own? Add in young growing populations that increases domestic demand and it isn't the great idea that you think it would be.
 

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