How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

60 / 40 at best at the moment. To get to 80 would need an obvious realisation that Brexit is impacting daily life. The lights going out while the EU stays lit because they cooperate might do it.
The idea that we'd rejoin with all the benefits and everything returns to as before is just fantasy so selling the facts and reality therefore makes rejoin actually far more difficult. Remain did not even sell the benefits of remaining when it came to remaining as it was all just about how much of a disaster leave would be. You cannot run a rejoin campaign based purely on how bad things are. This time the benefits of rejoining have to be sold and the population is highly skeptical of those so I'd say 50/50 is far more likely.

There's also a strong chance that we'd need to accept the Euro given for the EU any rejoin effort would be an opportunity to integrate the UK once and for all. A lot moan about the price of the £ vs $ but try looking at the Euro vs the $ today.... We'd lose total control of monetary policy if we adopted the Euro, something that arguably some on here would bizarrely say is a benefit....

Personally I think arguing to join EFTA is far more appropriate given the rift in the population. It means retaining a greater level of autonomy vs rejoining, it means we keep our currency and we'd also get access to freedom of movement and the single market.

An even bigger benefit to EFTA is we'd be in the same room as Norway who are one of our largest energy suppliers. Collaborating with Norway in the North Sea would pose a massive opportunity. It keeps us away from shale gas and we could easily establish a smaller rival to big energy producers elsewhere. Does no-one ever wonder why Norwegians are all rich?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Does no-one ever wonder why Norwegians are all rich?
It's fairly well documented why Norway is as rich as it is. Rather than selling North Sea licences to the highest bidder and watch those companies make lots of money, the Norwegians kept a significant stake in their oil and gas fields and put the proceeds into a sovereign wealth fund that is now one of the largest in the world. We opted to just tax the exploration companies and take the licence fees. If we had followed the Norway route, our government would have doubled their revenue over the years. Obviously, as a much larger country, no government would have put it all in a SWF, but it would have been available to boost public spending or cut taxes as well as putting some in a SWF.
 
Is it coz they are all Communisticals addicted to paying loads of tax?
I'm pretty sure that they're taxed less than we are. Corporation tax is slightly higher but income taxes are lower, even for the rich.

As they say it's not the amount but rather how it's spent.

Top-statutory-personal-income-tax-rates-in-Europe-2021.jpg
 
It's fairly well documented why Norway is as rich as it is. Rather than selling North Sea licences to the highest bidder and watch those companies make lots of money, the Norwegians kept a significant stake in their oil and gas fields and put the proceeds into a sovereign wealth fund that is now one of the largest in the world. We opted to just tax the exploration companies and take the licence fees. If we had followed the Norway route, our government would have doubled their revenue over the years. Obviously, as a much larger country, no government would have put it all in a SWF, but it would have been available to boost public spending or cut taxes as well as putting some in a SWF.
To be fair this is only justified if you have the benefit of hindsight. Norway has made most of its money from oil which is always easy due to the volatility but gas is a different kettle of fish. Gas demand has been falling until very recently and no-one ever forecasted a future proxy war with Russia which would precipitate a supply crisis.

It would be almost a stupid decision 5-10 years ago to establish a national gas producer because gas was cheaper to import and with the green regulation/rhetoric it didn't fit the agenda which instead moved to focus on renewables.

Unfortunately we fall victim again to the political climate, something Norway is mostly immune from because of its political system and the fact that life in Norway isn't run on Twitter by activists. We all want cheap energy but we all want cheap energy that costs nothing and pollutes nothing. Today this type of energy does not exist no matter who owns the means of production, this fact is lost on most people.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Norway does not pretend to be a Great Power. We do.

Note the important word 'pretend'.

It has been this country's fatal error since 1945, and part of a general delusion about our place in the world.
Hard though it is to believe, some politicians in the post-WW2 era actually thought we could have as much heft in the world as the USA. They really did. Then they decided that if we could not actually be a princess, we must at least dress as one, even if it meant living on baked beans.
 
To be fair this is only justified if you have the benefit of hindsight. Norway has made most of its money from oil which is always easy due to the volatility but gas is a different kettle of fish. Gas demand has been falling until very recently and no-one ever forecasted a future proxy war with Russia which would precipitate a supply crisis.

It would be almost a stupid decision 5-10 years ago to establish a national gas producer because gas was cheaper to import and with the green regulation/rhetoric it didn't fit the agenda which instead moved to focus on renewables.

Unfortunately we fall victim again to the political climate, something Norway is mostly immune from because of its political system and the fact that life in Norway isn't run on Twitter by activists. We all want cheap energy but we all want cheap energy that costs nothing and pollutes nothing. Today this type of energy does not exist no matter who owns the means of production, this fact is lost on most people.
It's more the decisions from 40 years ago that were arguably wrong. The government sold off the nationalised BNOC (subsequently Britoil) in the early 80s for not very much and most of it ultimately ended up with BP. Similarly the British Gas Corporation was privatised in 1986 (the FOCs on here will remember the "Tell Sid" campaign) and the government made a few quid that was quickly used up, but lost out for the long term. That was the period when the Thatcher government was busy privatising everything it could for short term gain. That was long before Twitter and was a direct result of Thatcherite ideology whatever the cost. Although I agreed with the privatisation of most manufacturing industries, the privatisation of energy resources owned by the nation always seemed to not be the best of ideas.
 
It's all coming home to roost, isn't it? Private ownership of everything has led, eventually to where we are now. I know that nobody could have predicted Putins antics but something like this is always on the cards. Just been listening to R4 talking about housing. We sold off huge amounts of council housing stocks, the main source of rented accommodation and, finally, we have a situation where landlords can charge what they like and can sell off a house with tenants still in there. This has been caused by a serious shortage of housing. The Nasty Party have been promising since 2010 that they would build more housing but never have. The main source of cheap rental housing used to be owned by councils but their money has been slashed and they are now unable to afford them. The rise in interest rates are going to be devastating for some. There used to restrictions on who could get a mortgage, 3 x salary or something like that. I am sure this used to keep the price of houses down because you couldn't buy if you couldn't get the money but then banks etc began to just give money to anyone and the price of houses went through the roof.

People don't appear to understand that not everyone can afford to own their own home. You have to be earning enough and if you don't then you can't. The only way to bring down house prices is to build more.
 
It's all coming home to roost, isn't it? Private ownership of everything has led, eventually to where we are now. I know that nobody could have predicted Putins antics but something like this is always on the cards. Just been listening to R4 talking about housing. We sold off huge amounts of council housing stocks, the main source of rented accommodation and, finally, we have a situation where landlords can charge what they like and can sell off a house with tenants still in there. This has been caused by a serious shortage of housing. The Nasty Party have been promising since 2010 that they would build more housing but never have. The main source of cheap rental housing used to be owned by councils but their money has been slashed and they are now unable to afford them. The rise in interest rates are going to be devastating for some. There used to restrictions on who could get a mortgage, 3 x salary or something like that. I am sure this used to keep the price of houses down because you couldn't buy if you couldn't get the money but then banks etc began to just give money to anyone and the price of houses went through the roof.

People don't appear to understand that not everyone can afford to own their own home. You have to be earning enough and if you don't then you can't. The only way to bring down house prices is to build more.
And new housing opposed by NIMBYs because they have an interest in higher house prices. "Don't build on green fields near me," say the people whose own houses were built on green fields.
 
To be fair this is only justified if you have the benefit of hindsight. Norway has made most of its money from oil which is always easy due to the volatility but gas is a different kettle of fish. Gas demand has been falling until very recently and no-one ever forecasted a future proxy war with Russia which would precipitate a supply crisis.

It would be almost a stupid decision 5-10 years ago to establish a national gas producer because gas was cheaper to import and with the green regulation/rhetoric it didn't fit the agenda which instead moved to focus on renewables.

Unfortunately we fall victim again to the political climate, something Norway is mostly immune from because of its political system and the fact that life in Norway isn't run on Twitter by activists. We all want cheap energy but we all want cheap energy that costs nothing and pollutes nothing. Today this type of energy does not exist no matter who owns the means of production, this fact is lost on most people.


total lack of strategic thinking here......
 
The idea that we'd rejoin with all the benefits and everything returns to as before is just fantasy so selling the facts and reality therefore makes rejoin actually far more difficult. Remain did not even sell the benefits of remaining when it came to remaining as it was all just about how much of a disaster leave would be. You cannot run a rejoin campaign based purely on how bad things are. This time the benefits of rejoining have to be sold and the population is highly skeptical of those so I'd say 50/50 is far more likely.

There's also a strong chance that we'd need to accept the Euro given for the EU any rejoin effort would be an opportunity to integrate the UK once and for all. A lot moan about the price of the £ vs $ but try looking at the Euro vs the $ today.... We'd lose total control of monetary policy if we adopted the Euro, something that arguably some on here would bizarrely say is a benefit....

Personally I think arguing to join EFTA is far more appropriate given the rift in the population. It means retaining a greater level of autonomy vs rejoining, it means we keep our currency and we'd also get access to freedom of movement and the single market.

An even bigger benefit to EFTA is we'd be in the same room as Norway who are one of our largest energy suppliers. Collaborating with Norway in the North Sea would pose a massive opportunity. It keeps us away from shale gas and we could easily establish a smaller rival to big energy producers elsewhere. Does no-one ever wonder why Norwegians are all rich?
EFTA are Iceland (pop350k) , Liechtenstein (38k), Norway (5,5M) and the biggest member Switzerland (8,7M), they do't want the UK (70M) because it will screw up all their trade deals.
There is very little benefit to EFTA members in letting the UK join.
 
EFTA are Iceland (pop350k) , Liechtenstein (38k), Norway (5,5M) and the biggest member Switzerland (8,7M), they do't want the UK (70M) because it will screw up all their trade deals.
There is very little benefit to EFTA members in letting the UK join.
Feel like we're the non sporty kid that no one wants on their team.....
 
The idea that we'd rejoin with all the benefits and everything returns to as before is just fantasy so selling the facts and reality therefore makes rejoin actually far more difficult. Remain did not even sell the benefits of remaining when it came to remaining as it was all just about how much of a disaster leave would be. You cannot run a rejoin campaign based purely on how bad things are. This time the benefits of rejoining have to be sold and the population is highly skeptical of those so I'd say 50/50 is far more likely.

There's also a strong chance that we'd need to accept the Euro given for the EU any rejoin effort would be an opportunity to integrate the UK once and for all. A lot moan about the price of the £ vs $ but try looking at the Euro vs the $ today.... We'd lose total control of monetary policy if we adopted the Euro, something that arguably some on here would bizarrely say is a benefit....

Personally I think arguing to join EFTA is far more appropriate given the rift in the population. It means retaining a greater level of autonomy vs rejoining, it means we keep our currency and we'd also get access to freedom of movement and the single market.

An even bigger benefit to EFTA is we'd be in the same room as Norway who are one of our largest energy suppliers. Collaborating with Norway in the North Sea would pose a massive opportunity. It keeps us away from shale gas and we could easily establish a smaller rival to big energy producers elsewhere. Does no-one ever wonder why Norwegians are all rich?
In a strange and twisted world, as we become poorer and the public wake up to the fact we have shot ourselves in the foot, rejoining the EU will probably be seen as a benefit, and not a curse.

Leaving the EU was primarily a vote from the elderly that saw our membership as a buisness arrangement that cost us, in their eyes, too much money. They didn't grasp the idea it was a successful community, working together in harmony to protect us all from the ravages of extreme political nutjobs we now find ourselves being governed by.

'Ooh' the leavers wailed. 'it's costing us £7B a year', and the big red bus went around saying '£350 a week to the NHS' with the rest of their campaigners coming out with their claptrap like 'we'll take back control', 'a deal with the EU will be the easiest in history', 'they need us more than we need them', 'only Britain and Germany are net contributors to the EU budget, and 'they'll miss our money......'.

All of it was absolute bullshit, and saying we would lose control of our monetary policy if we had the Euro as our currency is just as much a fantasy as Jacob Rees-Mogg saying prices would come down after we had left the EU.

The EU exists to help countries, not punish them, and why is it, out of all the countries that belong to the wealthiest, most prosperous economic area in the world, and appreciate the benefits its membership brings, did we see it differently?

It's because the tories like being tories, they detest the idea of socialism, and they, along with the MSM, well and truly aided and abetted by Boris Johnson writing his garbage in The Telegrph about Prawn Cocktail crisps or bent bananas being banned, always held sway without any mature discussion regarding the positives our membership brought.

Yes, I voted to remain, because for the life of me I couldn't think of a single aspect of how my life had been adversely affected by our membership. Others saw it differently, and voted to leave. They quoted the £7B year membership fee but in a country spending £860B a year it was less than the contingency fund for emergency expeniture our sovereign and independent government thought was appropriate at the time.
 
Last edited:
Just heard a farming representative admit that the U.K. now exports 70,000 tonnes of lamb into the EU when before it was 90,000 tonnes.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top